hello gentlemen

[Dend78]

1) XM8 + XM320
2) Pair of H&K .45 USPs
3) Armored Toyota Land Cruiser
4) Protech Titan
5) Sterling Black Icon - Fragments of Unbecoming
6) Matt Eversman
7) My friend's apartment complex, it's designed very well for a zombie outbreak.
8) Japan, Mt. Fiji
9) "You can take my life, but the revolution will live on!"

I decided to change my primary.

this all depends on the zombies im dealing with here are we talking night of the living dead zombies (slow movers) or are we talking Dawn of the Dead (sprinters)


1) HK carbon fiber 12ga shotty cant remember exact numbers on it
2) FN 5.7 loaded with ss-197's and some extra mags to go with it
3) original H1 with steel over the windows so they cant swarm me and break the glass out
4) BigEvilOnline Jersey
5) Symphony of Destruction - Megadeath
6) Jesica Simpson, "I couldnt help but notice your initials are double D"
7) my place, nice lil place full of people who will turn in an instant and need to be killed
8) my parents place nice place out in the country not many people around and you can see em coming
9) "YOU KNOW HOW I GOT THESE SCARS?!?!?!"

[Lohman446]

Please tell me why that's a good thing.

Reread and consider context. I was not making the argument that the loophole was a good thing.

[grEnAlEins]

Seriously BE?

In Ohio, I can walk up to a private sellers table. They'll have all sorts of revolvers/pistols/rifles/MG's.
I give them cash, they give me guns, we go our own ways. No paperwork. It is nothing more than a private transaction of personal property between two people.
The only way to "close the gunshow loophole" would be legislation that allows the government to oversee a citizens right to sell private property.
I'm sorry, but I do want a "commitee" deciding what I can and can't sell to my neighbor.

Big E is actually correct.

That is not how it works in Illinois...
We must fill out paperwork, what 24 hrs for a long gun and 72 for a handgun, even if the seller is from the other side of the state or out of state. Then you find out that the seller cannot access NICS, but is required to check the buyer via NICS So you need to have a dealer do a transfer, for a sometimes substantial fee, and with more paperwork for all involved parties.

Keep in mind that we have FOID Cards, which were originally implemented to take the place of background checks, because we get a big one when apply for the card, and they do NICS checks on all FOID holders daily. The idea is that anyone who has a FOID is not a criminal and it is ok to sell a gun to them.

Also, for everyone's information, waiting periods are not an effective means of crime control. All research conducted as to their effectiveness has shown no effect on crime. The only thing that does serve to control crime is the NICS check. I think that any person should have access to NICS if it is a requirement for transfer, but I do not think it should be required in Illinois because we get checked thoroughly every few years, and NICS checked daily. Waiting periods are just stupid...

I see no problem with mandating paperwork and a NICS check for transfers at a gun show, but the rest of that is a load of crap.

[Lohman446]

Obviously there are differences state to state.

A) I think I should be able to own any firearm I want - be it an Uzi or a single shot 22.

B) I think I should be able to buy and sell these between individuals (like my neighbor) as often as I want.

C) I really do not think a purchase permit authorized by the county sherrif is unreasonable as long as it is a "shall issue" and not a "can issue" permit. Just to assure that those buying are not disqualified from doing so. I also think steps need to be taken to make sure this does not become a red-tape nightmare. In MI I can walk in today and it takes 10 minutes to give me a purchase permit. I don't even think there is a fee, a reasonable fee ($5) would not be out of hand. Since I have a concealed carry permit I do not need a permit (reasonable).

D) I think those "private individuals" that look like dealers and act like dealers at gun shows should be dealers and follow the regulations involving dealers.

[grEnAlEins]

Right on

[Empyreal Rogue]

Reread and consider context. I was not making the argument that the loophole was a good thing.

Okay, Sorry Loh. I know you're a huge gun supporter (Nothing wrong with that, I'm a gun enthusiast myself) so I assumed you were endorsing it. I'm glad to hear you're not though, as that's something that I find very disturbing. I've been to a few gun shows here in Virginia and the one I've been to most often is based out of Roanoke, VA and nearly every dealer there, as far as I know, is a FFA dealer.

[Lohman446]

Unfortunately the "slippery slope" argument is applied by certain groups (ironically anti-gun control and anti-abortion groups come to mind) in such a manner as to prevent even reasonable ideas from being honestly considered. It does neither group any favors by making them look far too extreme to those who are not a part of them IMO.

[Pneumagger]

I'm not a fan of really anymore gun legislation than already exists. And some states already restrict ownership too much.
I think the "gunshow loophole" is rediculous. It's a made up buzzword because there is no "loophole" at all.
I hate the media... more than Richard Simmons.

I find it odd that, being the only physical object that the framers of the constitution specifically mentioned and protected, guns are so heavily regulated.

[Army]

We're talking two wholly different sales here:

#1) Federal law requires a FFL dealer that is selling firearms from his store inventory at a gun show to any individual, MUST do a background federal check (NICS), and correctly fill out a form 4473. Some states require a waiting period from this point, where the dealer will retain possession of the firearm until the waiting period is over.

There are no "loopholes" in this type of sale, it is absolutely the same as if you were buying a firearm at his store, and not a gun show.

#2) Joe Sixpack wants that cool Savage in .22-250 from Gary Couchpotato, who is selling a few knick-knacks and guns at the gun show to make a few bucks. Joe does not have a FFL nor owns a gun store, he is just a regular law abiding citizen.

Joe and Gary do not need to fill out any forms, nor conduct a NICS, nor have any need to wait. Their transaction is exactly the same as if Joe was buying an old TV from Gary----- private sale of private property, nothing more, noting less.

But Joe and Gary's transaction is the HORRIBLE, AWFUL, EEEEEVVIIILLLLLLLLL, CRIMINALISTIC, TERROR FUNDING, GOVERNMENT DESTROYING loophole that has been cried over by the leftists in our country.

See.....there is NO loophole. All legal transactions by a FFL holder is conducted according to state and federal law. All legal transactions by law abiding citizens are conducted by state and federal law and common sense.

No laws broken.

Once legislation is passed that regulates what you may do with your personal effects, then there is NOTHING you own that cannot be taken away or taxed into oblivion...... the 4th Amendment be damned.

[Lohman446]

We're talking two wholly different sales here:

#1) Federal law requires a FFL dealer that is selling firearms from his store inventory at a gun show to any individual, MUST do a background federal check (NICS), and correctly fill out a form 4473. Some states require a waiting period from this point, where the dealer will retain possession of the firearm until the waiting period is over.

There are no "loopholes" in this type of sale, it is absolutely the same as if you were buying a firearm at his store, and not a gun show.

#2) Joe Sixpack wants that cool Savage in .22-250 from Gary Couchpotato, who is selling a few knick-knacks and guns at the gun show to make a few bucks. Joe does not have a FFL nor owns a gun store, he is just a regular law abiding citizen.

Joe and Gary do not need to fill out any forms, nor conduct a NICS, nor have any need to wait. Their transaction is exactly the same as if Joe was buying an old TV from Gary----- private sale of private property, nothing more, noting less.

But Joe and Gary's transaction is the HORRIBLE, AWFUL, EEEEEVVIIILLLLLLLLL, CRIMINALISTIC, TERROR FUNDING, GOVERNMENT DESTROYING loophole that has been cried over by the leftists in our country.

See.....there is NO loophole. All legal transactions by a FFL holder is conducted according to state and federal law. All legal transactions by law abiding citizens are conducted by state and federal law and common sense.

No laws broken.

Once legislation is passed that regulates what you may do with your personal effects, then there is NOTHING you own that cannot be taken away or taxed into oblivion...... the 4th Amendment be damned.

Army, I agree with you in theory as you presented it. However, at least at the gun shows I am at, you cannot tell the difference between Joe Sixpack and the dealer. Joe has the same inventory selection as the dealer and is clearly doing it for profit.

That being said, the Joe Sixpack you described I have no problem at all with selling with minimal paperwork. That being said a permit issued by the county sherrif and retained by the seller that verifies the person is not disqualified from ownership is not out of line IMO.

I literally have far more paperwork involved in selling a car (even if I was doing so as a private individual) than selling a firearm as a private individual.

[Pneumagger]

the paperwork involved with operating a car is usually insurance, finance, or other clerical paperwork.

There are no laws governing private sale or ownership of the actual vehicle.
You can go out and purchase a car from Joe Sixpack for cash and never have to fill out anything but the title privately (proof of ownership).
You can then let anyone drive it around with no plates, insurance, or registration on your private property.
As long as you're not using public roads, there are no regulations. Large companies often do this for onsite-only company work vehicles.

So why should the government have oversight in property bought and sold by private individuals?
A card can be counterfeited VERY easily. Ever seen a good fake ID?
Until Joe Sixpack has access to NICS system, there is no way to effectively allow sellers to regulate tier own sales.

[Lohman446]

the paperwork involved with operating a car is usually insurance, finance, or other clerical paperwork.

There are no laws governing private sale or ownership of the actual vehicle.
You can go out and purchase a car from Joe Sixpack for cash and never have to fill out anything but the title privately (proof of ownership).
You can then let anyone drive it around with no plates, insurance, or registration on your private property.
As long as you're not using public roads, there are no regulations. Large companies often do this for onsite-only company work vehicles.

So why should the government have oversight in property bought and sold by private individuals?
A card can be counterfeited VERY easily. Ever seen a good fake ID?
Until Joe Sixpack has access to NICS system, there is no way to effectively allow sellers to regulate tier own sales.

In MI not only do you have to transfer the title you are supposed to hold a copy of it as well. The buyer is then required to register that title with the state and pay associated taxes. Those are all title requirements that have nothing to do with use of the vehicle, insurance, or finance. The idea that it can be counterfeited easily so lets not do it to me while a valid thought is not a valid argument. Why not just do away with all ID because it can be counterfeited?

However, let me get away from the concept of a card because I realize thats going beyond what we have now.

Lets seperate Joe Sixpack who is legitimately selling from private individual to private individual from Joe Sixpack who looks like a dealer and acts like a dealer but is a "private individual". My concern is not the person selling 1, 2, or even a dozen guns. My problem is the "private individual" who has 25, 30, or more guns for sale at any given time at these gun shows who is clearly acting as a dealer not at just a single show but week in and week out at various shows.

[Pneumagger]

The ATF frowns upon purchasing guns simply for resale without an FFL - especially without profit. Infact, if Joe Sixpack buys any or all of his firearm collection (inventory) using a Form 4473 he may be comitting a felony straw purchases/sales by purchasing with sole intent to resell. However, if he purchased his whole collection privately, and it is a 'dealeresque' size inventory, he is a very gifted wheeler and dealer along with not not breaking laws. However, I don't see a private citizen amassing table full loads of firearms completely through private deals. Selling off a private collection at a gunshow is ENTIRELY different than selling tables full of merchandise every other week at shows. The ATF is one agency that you DO NOT want to raise an eyebrow at you. They pretty much make thier own rules along the way and generally always **** the little guy. If they want to nail you, there is no way to avoid it.

The fact of the matter is, if Joe is getting his firearms for sale legally (not through another FFL) it is not his responsibility to ensure a background check is passed.
He is not a Federal Firearm License holder and is not subject to those laws - nor should he be.
Do you want a to have to obtain a permit to sell your car, coutch, or Automags someday? Then why should guns be restricted.
Gubernment should not interfere with private non-licensed intrastate commerce... period.

[Lohman446]

The ATF frowns upon purchasing guns simply for resale without an FFL - especially without profit. Infact, if Joe Sixpack buys any or all of his firearm collection (inventory) using a Form 4473 he may be comitting a felony straw purchases/sales by purchasing with sole intent to resell. However, if he purchased his whole collection privately, and it is a 'dealeresque' size inventory, he is a very gifted wheeler and dealer along with not not breaking laws. However, I don't see a private citizen amassing table full loads of firearms completely through private deals. Selling off a private collection at a gunshow is ENTIRELY different than selling tables full of merchandise every other week at shows. The ATF is one agency that you DO NOT want to raise an eyebrow at you. They pretty much make thier own rules along the way and generally always **** the little guy. If they want to nail you, there is no way to avoid it.

The fact of the matter is, if Joe is getting his firearms for sale legally (not through another FFL) it is not his responsibility to ensure a background check is passed.
He is not a Federal Firearm License holder and is not subject to those laws - nor should he be.
Do you want a to have to obtain a permit to sell your car, coutch, or Automags someday? Then why should guns be restricted.
Gubernment should not interfere with private non-licensed intrastate commerce... period.

Recall somewhere in the argument that I made the point it should be handled at a state level. This may seem like a minor point but to me it is vital. The Federal government has already overstepped its boundaries (to a degree that is ridiculous) and simply does not have the authority to regulate this IMO.

That being said I really don't think there is as much disagreement on the "loophole" as could be made out. While I would not be totally against some further form of protection to prevent those disqualified from purchasing my main issue is those exploiting the loophole that is intended to allow private individuals the right to buy and sell as private individuals. Again, if someone looks like a dealer and acts like a dealer, they should be required to be a dealer and follow the appropriate regulations.

Guns are not pieces of furniture. Insisting they be treated like such just jeopardizes the support of the moderates (especially those that do not own them) and does the gun owner no favors.

[blake20]

Missour Regulations

The problem with regulation is this. I bought 3 shotguns when they were on sale at one time. All Mossberg pumps, a 12ga, 20ga and 410. Filled out all the paperwork and everthing was fine, got my guns and I was happy. Then later in the year I went and purchased an AK47 and a 7.62 x 54 Moisn Nagant (They were cheap at the time). Filled out all the paperwork and everthing went fine.
Then I decided that I needed a new handgun. So I picked out a used SS 10mm Smith & Wesson from a dealer. Went to the sherriff's office and got my permit to own a handgun, $10. Then I went to get my new gun with permit in hand. When my background check went through I was told I couldn't buy the gun unless I took a Psychiatric test . Their (ATF) reason is: I had already bought 5 guns in the same year, so when you buy the 6th one, the red flag goes up and you have to prove your not crazey. So (on the Phone with ATF) I ask where is the test at? The test was 45 miles away and I had to stay overnight and It would cost me arround $600. WTF?? The gun only cost me $350!!!
Just so happens it was after Christmas, so I had the guy hold the gun untill Jan1, and my sherriff's permit was good for 30 days. So on Jan 2nd I went and passed my background check and then Still had to wait 7 Days to get my gun since I purchased it in Jackson County. (Each county is different in MO) I still had to wait even though there is no waiting period in Clay County (the one I live in).
I just want to clarify I don't have any felonies, and at the time of purchases I was fully employed, going to school and in my late twenties. So it wasn't like I was some great threat.

Now hows that for Regulation.