Socialism One and All!

[DevilMan]

See CP does it to. He can explain to you all the negatives of one party, gloss over the "they just want personal freedoms" of the other and then explain only one party has any sanity.

This "line drawn in the sand" of our nations politics is not positive

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed it, but gave up on this discussion when it went the Rep vs Dem... I don't give a rats posterior about either of em... So calling me one or the other in itself just makes whoever does it an idiot. I think ALL of the gov needs a good purge. But when this convo went the way of R vs D, I gave up. That's not what this was a discussion of.

Just love how it "transmorgifies" into it all.

I personally feel that ruling members of both parties are idiots... well most of them. And I agree that LEFT vs RIGHT is NEVER going to solve anything! When are THEY going to learn to meet in the middle on something that we can all benefit from...

Oh well, another day in this life is gone... make the most of what you have left!

DM

[cockerpunk]

See CP does it to. He can explain to you all the negatives of one party, gloss over the "they just want personal freedoms" of the other and then explain only one party has any sanity.

This "line drawn in the sand" of our nations politics is not positive

line drawn in the sand? what line is that? your projecting becuase i drew no line.

rather then making a worthless observation, how about a counter-point?

yeah, thats cause there isn't a counter-point. not one that makes any sense anyway. the repulicans are hardly libertarians. which is ironic becuase Reagan (the republican demi-god) always said that libertarianism is the core of conservatism. of course he made some of the classic problems i already pointed out, mainly with abortion.


let it be clear, i am by no means a democrat, and i dont support the health care bill for the reasons i already posted. but the whole discussion was if the democrats are closer to libertarianism then the republicans, and i think i supported that point well, and no one has a counter-point.

[Lohman446]

like i said, the only half sane party out there - the democrats.

Yeh, thats not a line in the sand or anything. My thoughts on the matter are you can both be wrong. Neither the democratic party, nor the republican party represent libertarianism well at all. As to which one is closer is meaningless. Its like asking is 100 or -100 closer to 0. They are both that far off from the core ideas. Frankly at this point both seem to support big government, big spending, and a government hand in nearly everything.

If we can call some specific programs we can counter argue it all day long

Republicans get abortion / democrats get gun control

Republicans get anti-gay marriage / democrats get anti-drilling

We could go on and on. Your concept that "democrats just want to let people do what they want", in modern day government, is blind. I don't know if its because of misinformation or because you just ignore the facts that do not suit your hypothesis. You would be appalled if I made such a factually incorrect argument in any other "science" (how is political science science anyways?) it surprises me you are so willing to do so in this type of discussion.

BTW, I said CP does it TOO - some of you seem to have missed that part of it.

[cockerpunk]

Yeh, thats not a line in the sand or anything. My thoughts on the matter are you can both be wrong. Neither the democratic party, nor the republican party represent libertarianism well at all. As to which one is closer is meaningless. Its like asking is 100 or -100 closer to 0. They are both that far off from the core ideas. Frankly at this point both seem to support big government, big spending, and a government hand in nearly everything.

If we can call some specific programs we can counter argue it all day long

Republicans get abortion / democrats get gun control

Republicans get anti-gay marriage / democrats get anti-drilling

We could go on and on. Your concept that "democrats just want to let people do what they want", in modern day government, is blind. I don't know if its because of misinformation or because you just ignore the facts that do not suit your hypothesis. You would be appalled if I made such a factually incorrect argument in any other "science" (how is political science science anyways?) it surprises me you are so willing to do so in this type of discussion.

BTW, I said CP does it TOO - some of you seem to have missed that part of it.

is actually a conclusion. deduced and supported and the information in the post. and if no one has a counterpoint - then the conclusion is on sound ground.

i also didn't post anything like "democrats just want to let people do what they want" and that was hardly a conclusion to be taken from my posts. in fact, i said quite the opposite, and this thread is about something the exact opposite - the mandate for health care.

don't put words in my mouth.

[Lohman446]

who is intervening our personal, social and economic matters?

personal - republicans with gay marriage, with abortion, and with the patriot act

social - again, republicans, with gay marriage, abortion, re-writing American history, and theological laws based on the christian religion. also the torture issues and git-mo, changing what the American justice system fundamentally is about.

economic - again, the republicans with the the bank bailouts, with massive deficit spending in worthless wars.
.

Your right, you never said the democrats just wanted to let people leave there life, you just very much left it to be assumed it was what you meant, because it is the evil republicans who are intervening in all walks of life.

CP, you think too highly of your own "deductive" reasoning, or you think to highly of the entirety of the "facts" you use to come to it. Of course, the other side is doing the same thing with different "facts" so I guess it is only fair.

[cockerpunk]

Your right, you never said the democrats just wanted to let people leave there life, you just very much left it to be assumed it was what you meant, because it is the evil republicans who are intervening in all walks of life.

CP, you think too highly of your own "deductive" reasoning, or you think to highly of the entirety of the "facts" you use to come to it. Of course, the other side is doing the same thing with different "facts" so I guess it is only fair.

you post something, and it has nothing supporting it. if you want to make a counter point - make one. i can't take your assurance that i am wrong as a compelling argument that i am wrong. sorry, it doesn't work like that.

i didn't rip into the democrats becuase i was showing how the republicans are NOT libertarians, not even close. and much much farther from that position then the democrats. i even talked about the democrats roles in those three categories in literally the sentence after the ones you quoted.

[Frizzle Fry]

and if no one has a counterpoint - then the conclusion is on sound ground.

How very scientific... If nobody can prove me wrong I'm right?

CP, you think too highly of your own "deductive" reasoning, or you think to highly of the entirety of the "facts" you use to come to it. Of course, the other side is doing the same thing with different "facts" so I guess it is only fair.

He hasn't stated a fact yet, just opinions and allusions to "government-enforced religion".

[cockerpunk]

How very scientific... If nobody can prove me wrong I'm right?

yeah, thats how logic works.

[cockerpunk]

How very scientific... If nobody can prove me wrong I'm right?




He hasn't stated a fact yet, just opinions and allusions to "government-enforced religion".

you need the links? here you go -

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/01/91478/some-conservatives-rewrite-history.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQx_2j5nXuc&channel=aronra

[Frizzle Fry]

you need the links? here you go -

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/04/01/91478/some-conservatives-rewrite-history.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQx_2...channel=aronra

Show me something that isn't from an leftist newspaper or news organization. Nothing from James McClatchy, Arianna Huffington, or anyone that extreme. That's like quoting Rush Limbaugh or Phil Valentine and hoping for an unbiased opinion. The middle ground isn't so accurate either, but if you take the word of either side for granted... that's just silly.

That said, the links you've posted include examples of a few politicians, and you've used those examples to make VAST generalizations about an entire political party. Does the word "SOME" mean nothing to you? How about "FEW"? If you'd actually read and listened to the links you'd posted you'd realize that they don't support your grand, sweeping statements at all. I'd like to think I walk the middle ground, but I do notice how thickheaded ignorance manifests on both sides.

[Lohman446]

yeah, thats how logic works.

Really, so if you can't disprove it its fact.

Disprove the existence of god(s) please.

or for more fun disprove we are simply a brain in a vat with all sensory input being provided to use by a complex machine.

or....

Well, you get the point. Its how far too simplistic and egotistical logic works. The absence of proof is not proof in itself.

Anyone who tells you that "logically" one side of something as vast and diverse as a political spectrum is so much more enlightened than the other is using as little thinking as those they are debating against. Both sides have gaping holes, extremists, and people who you wonder how they manage to put on pants, let alone get elected. One side is not the only one with any sanity. Those who think differently then you are not insane. At what point does egotism cross to narcisism?

And a lot of people in this debate should consider the question to be applied to themselves. Think about it detached from your ego, meditate, whatever you do. Its something interesting to consider.

[going_home]

Really, so if you can't disprove it its fact.
Disprove the existence of god(s) please.

Heres a better one.

Why dont you prove you have a brain (or anyone for that matter) ?
You've never seen your brain, you never touched it, you've never smelled it, you've never heard it.
Logically then your brain (or anyones brain) does not exist .

Its the same argument used to attempt to prove that God doesnt exist because you
cant see, feel, taste, or hear Him.

Either way its just as fruitless.

Just about like this thread.

[drg]

Show me something that isn't from an leftist newspaper or news organization. Nothing from James McClatchy, Arianna Huffington, or anyone that extreme.

Dude, get a clue as to what the McClatchy company is.

[ProblemKinder]

republicans are stupid.

also, democrats are stupid.

get over it

[Lohman446]

Heres a better one.

Why dont you prove you have a brain (or anyone for that matter) ?
You've never seen your brain, you never touched it, you've never smelled it, you've never heard it.
Logically then your brain (or anyones brain) does not exist .

Its the same argument used to attempt to prove that God doesnt exist because you
cant see, feel, taste, or hear Him.

Either way its just as fruitless.

Just about like this thread.

I was referring to CP when he stated in answer to the question "if you state someone and noone disproves it does it make it fact" he explained "that is how logic works". It is not how logic works.

That being said you are right about the pointlessness of this thread. I think thats really my point. Basically what one things of the entirety of the opinions expressed has been summed up with "do you agree with this or not" because the thought process that goes into it, or any other points, are valued or disregarded based on if they fit the preconceived view of either side. Any fruitful discussion is lost by a lack of willingness to honestly discuss.

Socialist, pig, sane, "logic", thoughless etc all replace open and honest discussion. It, much like our politicians today, looks like school yard "debates" between children, with neither side even considering the viewpoints that do not fit what they want the outcome to be.