Socialism One and All!

[Lohman446]

So are you saying you are FOR or AGAINST this Healthcare Reform Bill that just got passed?

As for how it's paid for, when I look at my W2 from my employer it has places for various taxes listed. It's a tax based on your income not how much property you have. Your dependents and such are not a factor to your property taxes. So there ya have it... another faulty way to do things... and yet it's how it's done. You rent, so you don't have to pay taxes to the school system. So instead of it being a property based taxed, why not an income tax? I know some of it is taken from me and I don't have any kids and never have had any. And yet I lose money to go to the system for the support of it.

DM

I think there are major issues with it in its current form. I think that healthcare will take government intervention to check costs. Forcing people into private insurance does not address the cost issue and will only succeed at adding cost through government intervention.

That being said, there may be some moral obligation for us, as a society, to find a level of medical care that we do provide our citizens. This is not it. We probably already do considering the government programs available.

[drg]

From a way of thinking, universalizing healthcare and paying for it with a broad-based tax IS close to a user fee. We all use our health.

[DevilMan]

From a way of thinking, universalizing healthcare and paying for it with a broad-based tax IS close to a user fee. We all use our health.

We all use our health. But some of us are more keen on taking care of ourselves from the get go. Those of us that eat healthy, exercise, get regular check ups when we can even though we don't have insurance. Sure you say I do because I can. Well actually I don't. But I do try and take care of myself. I should have to cover any costs that I come across. I don't bill it out to you when I need to go in and get stitches because I damn near sliced my thumb off. Instead, I didn't go in at all, but put a band aid on it. Were stitches needed? Meh... who knows. I chose to take care of it myself, instead of running to the ER for a $500 dollar bill for stitches, meds, etc to be billed out to the rest of AO.

I guess next time I'll post up that I need donations and I am happy to know that you'll be the first to post up with the full amount to cover the tab... Hell, you know what.... I'll post up my PP and you can go ahead and start. We'll cut out the middle man. You see, I got braces put on about 2 years ago. I've not been back to the Ortho since, because I've been out of work which means out of money. So since you are so generous please send me the $2500 that I have left to pay on them so I can get the lowers put on and get the tops adjusted.

It's about making everyone else pay for someone else and it not being fair to everyone.

If you want to tax everyone about it, then they should have a say in what treatment a person gets as well as a say in how that person lives their life. Can you say Taxation With OUT Representation?

DM

[cockerpunk]

We all use our health. But some of us are more keen on taking care of ourselves from the get go. Those of us that eat healthy, exercise, get regular check ups when we can even though we don't have insurance. Sure you say I do because I can. Well actually I don't. But I do try and take care of myself. I should have to cover any costs that I come across. I don't bill it out to you when I need to go in and get stitches because I damn near sliced my thumb off. Instead, I didn't go in at all, but put a band aid on it. Were stitches needed? Meh... who knows. I chose to take care of it myself, instead of running to the ER for a $500 dollar bill for stitches, meds, etc to be billed out to the rest of AO.

I guess next time I'll post up that I need donations and I am happy to know that you'll be the first to post up with the full amount to cover the tab... Hell, you know what.... I'll post up my PP and you can go ahead and start. We'll cut out the middle man. You see, I got braces put on about 2 years ago. I've not been back to the Ortho since, because I've been out of work which means out of money. So since you are so generous please send me the $2500 that I have left to pay on them so I can get the lowers put on and get the tops adjusted.

It's about making everyone else pay for someone else and it not being fair to everyone.

If you want to tax everyone about it, then they should have a say in what treatment a person gets as well as a say in how that person lives their life. Can you say Taxation With OUT Representation?

DM

do you know how medical insurance works?

from this post you seem to advocating for a position of simply abolishing medical insurance becuase of your personal pride.

the healthy pay for the sick, that is how all medical insurance works. i pay for someone to have there kid now so that in 5 years when i break my leg in 5 places i'm not stuck with the $12,000 bill from the operations and hospital stay.

medical insurance is socialism, its a group of people banding together to even out the costs of everyone's healthcare. if you object with the nature of medical insurance itself ... then we have bigger problems then the healthcare bill we need to talk about.

as to your last bit about having a say, the insurance company has the say, they say that based on your age, your health condition, your lifestyle, that you have to pay this much to get this much coverage, that is a contract. if you don't want that coverage, you can get different coverage for a different price, or go to a different company. you wanna smoke, you gotta pay more to cover that risk.

i think you have a very bare understanding of how medical insurance, socialism, the healthcare bill, and all the rest of this stuff is interconnected.

[DevilMan]

uhhhh.. YOU CHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEE EEEE

to have health insurance! You CHOOOOOOOOOOSEEEEEE to pay for the healthy.

you CHOOOOOOOOSSSSSEEEEE what insurance you want and what you will pay!

NOONE was forcing you to have it! NOONE was forcing you to pay for anyone else!!!

You talk about a $12,000 bill for breaking your leg! I broke my foot in 2 places! I got 2 XRays, and a cast for 4 weeks! WHat do you think that cost? What should it cost?

You are failing to grasp the concept that we are not against reform! We ARE against a MANDATED YOU MUST HAVE PROGRAM!

Sheesh...

DM

[DevilMan]

You don't seem to get the fact that with INSURANCE being a private entity, they CAN keep raising their premiums! They CAN keep kicking out the folks or just charging too much to have it. But you see the difference is... It's a FREE MARKET!

Now what happens when the company keeps cutting out people and keeps raising prices, and keeps not paying on time, and keeps being a hassle to have???? You choose another company!!!!

Damn! There's that CHOICE word again.

DM

[DevilMan]

Do you know that it's ILLEGAL! As in a $500 fine to drink a coke or chew gum on a train in Singapore?

Do you know that it's a $250 fine for NOT flushing a public toilet?

You see... the difference is... YOU CHOOSE what you would rather do!

Do you know WHY it's illegal to chew gum on a train in Singapore?

DM

[drg]

Now what happens when the company keeps cutting out people and keeps raising prices, and keeps not paying on time, and keeps being a hassle to have???? You choose another company!!!!

Do you actually have a job? Do you find that you actually have health insurer choices? At most I've had a choice between a PPO and a HMO, so basically no choice. And my state has some of the best health insurance laws in the nation.

And that's if you have a job that offers insurance. If you don't, it can be difficult to get any company to insure you at all (until the pre-existing condition denials are done away with).

Remember, there is an industrywide antitrust exemption so rates won't vary by *that* much. There is just SO much more to this than the simplistic, ideological stance you are taking.

[DevilMan]

Do you actually have a job? Do you find that you actually have health insurer choices? At most I've had a choice between a PPO and a HMO, so basically no choice. And my state has some of the best health insurance laws in the nation.

And that's if you have a job that offers insurance. If you don't, it can be difficult to get any company to insure you at all (until the pre-existing condition denials are done away with).

Remember, there is an industrywide antitrust exemption so rates won't vary by *that* much. There is just SO much more to this than the simplistic, ideological stance you are taking.

And so the fix is for the government to run it?

I really do love the fact that you call me ideological. When I've done nothing but keep inputting ways to fix the system without a governmental overhaul. And yet you have yet, to put in anything other than, "It's the best!" type of post.

And for the record, yes I've had many jobs, in many states, in many facets of work. I am well aware of what PPO and HMO and all the other crap is. And yet again, you just can't seem to wrap your grey matter around the fact that the COMPANY YOU WORK FOR HAS A CHOICE!!!! That means YOU HAVE A CHOICE! Like it or not it's still a choice! AND BTW, there is NOTHING that ever said you had to pay into the HMO or PPO that they offer!!!! You were free to get your own if you so desired or you could do without. SO! YOU STILL HAD A CHOICE! So read what you wrote... "So basically NO choice" BS! and you stated it as such! If there was an issue with the insurance that my company went through (which there was) then my company switched to someone else (which they did) SEEE!!! It's called FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

Well look at it this way... You have it your way right now.

DM

[drg]

And so the fix is for the government to run it?

In a word, yes. There aren't many options here. You can either have corporate power running this critical industry, bleeding people for profits and looking out for their own bottom lines, or government which ostensibly looks out for the country as a whole. The two interests really aren't compatible.

And for the record, yes I've had many jobs, in many states, in many facets of work. I am well aware of what PPO and HMO and all the other crap is. And yet again, you just can't seem to wrap your grey matter around the fact that the COMPANY YOU WORK FOR HAS A CHOICE!!!! That means YOU HAVE A CHOICE! Like it or not it's still a choice! AND BTW, there is NOTHING that ever said you had to pay into the HMO or PPO that they offer!!!! You were free to get your own if you so desired or you could do without. SO! YOU STILL HAD A CHOICE! So read what you wrote... "So basically NO choice" BS! and you stated it as such! If there was an issue with the insurance that my company went through (which there was) then my company switched to someone else (which they did) SEEE!!! It's called FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

This is EXACTLY what I mean by you being an ideological simpleton. There is no effective choice available to the worker once an insurer is decided upon by the company. Celebrating the concept of choice for a situation in which there is really no choice at all is the epitome of rote ideological adherence.

[DevilMan]

In a word, yes. There aren't many options here. You can either have corporate power running this critical industry, bleeding people for profits and looking out for their own bottom lines, or government which ostensibly looks out for the country as a whole. The two interests really aren't compatible.

This is EXACTLY what I mean by you being an ideological simpleton. There is no effective choice available to the worker once an insurer is decided upon by the company. Celebrating the concept of choice for a situation in which there is really no choice at all is the epitome of rote ideological adherence.

So is it a requirement for you to pay into the HMO/PPO of the companies choosing? NO!

As an employee of the company do you have the ability to address any issues that you have with the HMO/PPO that the company has with the company to file a complaint against them and the practices? YES!

Just because you choose to not exercise that right, don't make it a fault of the HMO/PPO.

Were you allowed to purchase other insurance outside as well as in addition to the insurance that the company chose to offer to you? YES!

Was the company required by law to offer you insurance and provide you with a discounted plan paying for part of the coverage out of their own pockets? NO!

Looks like choices to me.

And now I'm a simpleton... That works for me. You see, I do believe that too many things are made way to complicated. Name the one primary use for a car today that is different than it was 30 years ago? TRANSPORTATING PEOPLE!!!! So why is it that cars have become so complicated? It's called job security. People in elected positions keep coming up with stupid things to justify their existence. Name one thing that can't be simplified. Look at Paintball. All of the high speed markers, and 25BPS and "my gun is faster than your gun" crap of 5 years ago? And now look at it. hmmmm... simplified.

Ideological??? If anyone in this convo it would be you. For thinking that the gov can run a privatized system in a manner that is beneficial and cost effective. In case you haven't noticed those 4 words don't fit to well in the same sentence.

DM

[DevilMan]

or government which ostensibly looks out for the country as a whole.

I really have to LMMFAO at this one! So exactly which part of this country do you suppose the government has been looking out for in the past few years?

Have you looked around at the unemployment rate of this country?

What about the housing market?

Have you noticed anything funny about where jobs are located in this country?

When was the last time you saw the oil wells here in the US running at full capacity?

Have you noticed how much crap is going on in the streets here in this country that is being "looks out for" and yet, we still give millions of dollars to other countries for "AID"?

Do you realize that for the amount of AID given to Haiti it could have become the 51st State?

So please do tell... which part of this country is being "looks out for" so well.

DM

[DevilMan]

There are some lyrics in a song that says, "they call me a simple man, I reckon that I am"

If simple means that I understand that my FREEDOM extends as far as the next persons nose, and that my LIFE is mine to live without interference and turmoil from others. And that it's my CHOICE as to whether or not I want to have a beer/cigarette/candy bar/coke/play a game of PB/go scuba diving/etc then it's MY choice and it's not for you or anyone else to tell me otherwise.

Then yep... I'm simple.

If it means that if you are caught "red handed" killing someone then you are put in the ground within a 365 day period of your conviction then Yep. Simple I am.

If simple means that if you break into MY house to take something I OWN and you get lead poisoning and bleed out on the porch then not only is that fair and justified, but I should be able to charge the cleaning bill to your family.

So yeah... Simple I guess I am. You have a problem with that? Or are you just one of the people that keep on trying to justify their existence with fanciful ideas about what a wonderful place the world would be if we all lived under one big happy government.

My guess is, you've never set foot on foreign soil for anything other than a vacation get away, and have no real clue what the rest of the world is like. And hey... I could be wrong... If so then I guess you are just a slow learner.

DM

[cockerpunk]

There are some lyrics in a song that says, "they call me a simple man, I reckon that I am"

If simple means that I understand that my FREEDOM extends as far as the next persons nose, and that my LIFE is mine to live without interference and turmoil from others. And that it's my CHOICE as to whether or not I want to have a beer/cigarette/candy bar/coke/play a game of PB/go scuba diving/etc then it's MY choice and it's not for you or anyone else to tell me otherwise.

Then yep... I'm simple.

If it means that if you are caught "red handed" killing someone then you are put in the ground within a 365 day period of your conviction then Yep. Simple I am.

If simple means that if you break into MY house to take something I OWN and you get lead poisoning and bleed out on the porch then not only is that fair and justified, but I should be able to charge the cleaning bill to your family.

So yeah... Simple I guess I am. You have a problem with that? Or are you just one of the people that keep on trying to justify their existence with fanciful ideas about what a wonderful place the world would be if we all lived under one big happy government.

My guess is, you've never set foot on foreign soil for anything other than a vacation get away, and have no real clue what the rest of the world is like. And hey... I could be wrong... If so then I guess you are just a slow learner.

DM

drg, hes one of the "unreachables" i call them.

you can literally go down to explaining the exact nuts and bolts to them, and there dogma will still have them saying its not true. its a common problem in discussions about global warming, evolution vs creation, historical revisionism, and theism in general.

the technique goes like this - admit your ignorance, use said misunderstanding or lack of understanding of the topic as an argument, ignore everyone trying to educate you, and conclude that you won the argument.

a common problem among people who live by dogma instead of reason.

[DevilMan]

drg, hes one of the "unreachables" i call them.

you can literally go down to explaining the exact nuts and bolts to them, and there dogma will still have them saying its not true. its a common problem in discussions about global warming, evolution vs creation, historical revisionism, and theism in general.

the technique goes like this - admit your ignorance, use said misunderstanding or lack of understanding of the topic as an argument, ignore everyone trying to educate you, and conclude that you won the argument.

a common problem among people who live by dogma instead of reason.

And so I'm explained... And yet so far you and DRG have yet to explain any other solution.

I also have to find humor in the fact that you have to spew out all of these big fanciful words and explanations to try and make yourself look so intellectual... Hell he did it with SIMPLETON...

Tell me this ole wise one who knows, sees, and hears all....

Do you think that the passing of laws by the government to which the government is exempt from following is proper/constitutional?

Is that simple enough?

DM