Socialism One and All!

[Smoothice]

In the mean time... here's a funny link just because http://techpb.com/?p=709 (seriously just watch it and ignore the chick on the from screen. It is work safe. (What does this have to do with socalism or healthcare... nothing, but I think we all need a laugh. I know I did!)

[drg]

From the outside looking in, I find this quite amusing. Maybe I can give a different perspective. I know people don't like getting imposed with a forced tax, which is essentially what the force purchase of health care is. Lower income people will be subsidized. What this means is that lower incomes will be subsidized by higher earner. Unfortunately, that is what happens in all modern civilized societies. The good side of this, is that no matter what happens in your financial future, you will at least have access to the same health care that everyone else has. You will never be turned down based on your economic means.

Has anyone ever dealt with private health care companies or insurance companies when it comes to big dollar values. Let me tell you. They do not part with their money easily, even if your policy says you have coverage. They will wait you out, even if it means you die. The longer they hold onto their money, the more it makes them in investment value. Having legislation stating that coverage for any circumstances can not be denied is very powerful and should be applauded.

I see statements to the fact that people leave Canada to go to the US for treatment because it is better. The reason is due to the fact that they have money. In Canada, they are treated as equals and can't jump the queue. In the US system, having money gets you faster service because there is not as big a queue due to not everyone having the same access. As a Canadian, I have to pay for health care. I do it through taxes. Do I mind/ No. I know that I can always go to a hospital or doctor at any time for any ailment and I will be treated in a very short time.

In business, I set my rates based on doing the least amount of work and getting the greatest amount of money. If I can get the same amount of money by keeping my rates up, it reduces my work load and I am happy. Why would I service the poor people that can't afford it. In a forced health care system, I can't deny the poorer people my services, so everyone is treated equally. As a big corporation, I will complain because it affects my bottom line, but in the end it is better for all people.

In the end, it is a mindset. Nobody wants to be told what to do and when to do it. Healthcare is a basic necessity that should be free in all societies. It is expensive, and the majority of the burden will always fall on the more fortunate and wealthy. In the end I think this is good for society as a whole. Being that it directly affects the way everyone does things right now, people don't like it because it takes about 5 years to accept change. It will be fine. You just can't see it yet.

Amen. It's funny how many Americans choose to believe everyone but the people who actually know something about it. Canada is the closest thing to America in terms of culture, and their experience with universal healthcare is excellent. Trying to raise fears of some kind of communist or eastern european style "bolshevik plot" is ridiculous on its face.

[BigEvil]

DRG, I always enjoy reading your posts- you are usually one of the few lefties I come across who has anything intelligent to say.

I do however have a few questions and comments;

Amen. It's funny how many Americans choose to believe everyone but the people who actually know something about it. Canada is the closest thing to America in terms of culture, and their experience with universal healthcare is excellent.

I am assuming you are speaking from personal experience. If so, please, do tell more of what you know regarding the Canadian system. Hearing first hand accounts of things I may never have the chance to experience myself will be very informative.

Trying to raise fears of some kind of communist or eastern european style "bolshevik plot" is ridiculous on its face.

The US has been moving more to the left since Teddy Roosevelt. Sometimes in small moves, sometimes in big moves. I don't think there are any Bolshevik's gathering in DC drinking vodka and plotting an October Surprise, but there most certainly is a like minded philosophy at work here. A philosophy that is NOT what the founders of this nation had intended.

For the most part, most of the American people are complacent. We allow our leaders to do whatever the hell they want, but up until a point. That point being where our way of life and lifestyles are threatened. That is happening now and the average American is starting to see it.

We (any of us) can have a civil and intelligent debate on the pros and cons of this health care legislation. Good points will be raised by both sides- however, the one glaring fact that should have automatically killed all of this is the astronomical price tag that goes with it. We cannot pay for it, and that's that.

[drg]

I am assuming you are speaking from personal experience. If so, please, do tell more of what you know regarding the Canadian system. Hearing first hand accounts of things I may never have the chance to experience myself will be very informative.

I do not claim or imply that I have firsthand experience with the Canadian system, only that I have seen many firsthand accounts (often in threads just like these) and they are almost uniformly highly positive. All objective research I can find says the system works well. And all metrics we have show that outcomes are as good or better than the US.

Here's a site to play with when you have a few minutes: http://www.pluralofanecdote.com/

But it is important to recognize that what we have is a far cry from the Canadian system.

The US has been moving more to the left since Teddy Roosevelt. Sometimes in small moves, sometimes in big moves. I don't think there are any Bolshevik's gathering in DC drinking vodka and plotting an October Surprise, but there most certainly is a like minded philosophy at work here. A philosophy that is NOT what the founders of this nation had intended.

For the most part, most of the American people are complacent. We allow our leaders to do whatever the hell they want, but up until a point. That point being where our way of life and lifestyles are threatened. That is happening now and the average American is starting to see it.

The founders wanted above all to not be oppressed. Replacing foreign oppression with domestic corporate oppression does not honor the vision of the founders. If there is an entity that is called upon by the founders to prevent oppression, it is the nation itself. Yes, the government itself, as the people ostensibly are the government. And insomuch as the majority of people favor many of the social policies we have borrowed from other ideologies, it is perfectly fine, within the confines of the interpretation of the laws we have, to take any particular tack on government involvement in supplying services to people.

We (any of us) can have a civil and intelligent debate on the pros and cons of this health care legislation. Good points will be raised by both sides- however, the one glaring fact that should have automatically killed all of this is the astronomical price tag that goes with it. We cannot pay for it, and that's that.

Being that on the whole the measure reduces the deficit (i.e. costs less than what we are dong now/doing nothing), I don't see any logic to that.

[Thordic]

The Canadian healthcare system is far from excellent.

I have a huge number of relatives in Canada (something around 150+ cousins/aunts/uncles at last count) and I've heard plenty of negative comments.

First off, wait times. You are entitled to care, but you aren't entitled to get it fast. I've heard from a few of my relatives that one of my uncles would still be alive today if he had been treated in the States, but because he was in Canada and was put on a wait list before he could receive surgery, he died while he was waiting.

I've also heard that since doctors are paid so little to work in the public hospitals, the best ones either go into private practice or come to the US. So you end up being treated by the doctors who aren't good enough to go somewhere else.

Basically, costs aside, most of my relatives, especially the older ones who have the most medical need, prefer US medical care. I know at least one of my great uncles came to the US to receive care because he didn't trust the Canadian system.

The Canadian system may be great for basic care for those who don't have money, but overall it is far from "excellent".

[CatoRockwell]

Well it seems we have an ideological split. Those of us that favor working for our bread, capitalism (I don't think thats a dirty word), and our rights and freedoms; and then all the socialists who think it's perfectly fine to rob a man of his hard earned labor for the betterment of the collective.

May I suggest a split then? Those of us who believed in free market, individual liberty, individualism, etc... should go form a new government which will uphold our values... all the socialist parasites, well as Ayn Rand would have put it: If we take away those that produce, then the parasites will die from destroying each other.

Hypothetically, if we split this nation in two, giving one half to everyone who wanted to form a free government, and the other half to people who wanted a socialist society where everyone works for the "common good". Which side do you think is going to last longer? Of course this is going under the assumption that the parasites would let their meal ticket leave peacefully. I know which side I'll choose.

[wico90]

"Socialists" get the north. you can have the confederacy

[CatoRockwell]

"Socialists" get the north. you can have the confederacy

Actually this time it might be more appropriate to be west vs east of course we'd have to get all the parasites out of seattle, portland, and all the major cities in california.

[SCpoloRicker]

WTF is with the comment about "Undergraduates"? I wasn't aware that you had to have some pathetic degree in order to research, learn, develop & adhere to a philosophy. That is a pretty low blow.

[My summary]Essentially, I pay taxes and have done some reading

Er, pretty much the opposite. My implication was, if you're a 20 year old undergraduate, you are probably living on student loans, or on your parents' dollar. Also, many have found that the opinions of 20 somethings is often quite different from those of 30 somethings who have been self-sufficient for a few years.

But I'm sure that you are doing fine without a dirty LIEbural "pathetic degree" regardless.

Disclosure: private business school degree, homeowner, self-identify as left leaning libertarian. Big Heinlein reader.

I was responding to:

who has even studied political science (in college) here?

Oh great, undergraduates...

/off the lawn!

Y'see, the parenthetical reference "(in college)" seems to indicate that we have an aspiring scholar amongst us. I was disparaging some of the idealism that is so common in youth. Also, qualifying remarks by noting that one has "even studied political science (in college)" is also quite amusing, to me.

[CatoRockwell]

Er, pretty much the opposite. My implication was, if you're a 20 year old undergraduate, you are probably living on student loans, or on your parents' dollar. Also, many have found that the opinions of 20 somethings is often quite different from those of 30 somethings who have been self-sufficient for a few years.

But I'm sure that you are doing fine without a dirty LIEbural "pathetic degree" regardless.

Disclosure: private business school degree, homeowner, self-identify as left leaning libertarian. Big Heinlein reader.

I was responding to:





Y'see, the parenthetical reference "(in college)" seems to indicate that we have an aspiring scholar amongst us. I was disparaging some of the idealism that is so common in youth. Also, qualifying remarks by noting that one has "even studied political science (in college)" is also quite amusing, to me.

apologies i thought you were referring to my comment.

[wico90]

all i wanted to know was if anyone had actually read literature on this or if you were just talking out your ***

[Lohman446]

Well it seems we have an ideological split. Those of us that favor working for our bread, capitalism (I don't think thats a dirty word), and our rights and freedoms; and then all the socialists who think it's perfectly fine to rob a man of his hard earned labor for the betterment of the collective.

Remember that the most successful capitalists also tend to give away the most money. Some of the most successful advocate taxing the rich (including themselves) at much higher rates than others.

Keep that in mind in your comments about how how capitalists would respond, especially the ones with all the capital you need.

[SCpoloRicker]

all i wanted to know was if anyone had actually read literature on this or if you were just talking out your ***

I'm not sure participating in an undergraduate PolySci course is a good indicator of background knowledge.

I'm currently reading Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle on the fiction front.

/cool stories, bro

[wico90]

how about some NON-Fiction

Machiavellii's The Discourses,

Anything by Aristotle, Socrates, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Plato, Thoreau, Martin Luther King Jr., Madison, Jefferson, Washington or Adams?

Wrote a 25 page paper on civil disobedience? Or Capitalism? Or Democracy? Or the dangers of an uninformed majority?

[CatoRockwell]

how about some NON-Fiction

Machiavellii's The Discourses,

Anything by Aristotle, Socrates, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Plato, Thoreau, Martin Luther King Jr., Madison, Jefferson, Washington or Adams?

Wrote a 25 page paper on civil disobedience? Or Capitalism? Or Democracy? Or the dangers of an uninformed majority?

Since i read alot i will list last year alone: jefferson's writings, the constitutional convention notes by madison, the federalis & anti-federalist papers, the Constitution (at least once a month), the Real Lincoln by Thomas D'Lorenzo. I know im missing a few but you get the idea. This year, i am currently reading Machiavelli's the prince, The Shenandoah Campaign (a book about stonewall jacksons famous valley campaign). On the list for this year: leviathan, 2nd treatise on civil government, Th Story of Civilization (my wife bought me all 12 volumes), Thomas Paine's works, & Samuel Adams Essays. Started studying history for fun 8 years ago.

To answer the other response: dont confuse the monsters who created state sanctioned monopolies, and helped the drive for socialism like rockefeller, morgan, etc... For true capatilists & free market advocates. These men gained power and then tried to destroy capitalism in hopes of building a powerful dynasty. You can keep the likes of them in the parasitical nation.