Socialism One and All!

[athomas]

"Forced" was the wrong word. Put a financial incentive on it and people can make a decision based on how bad they want the item vs its cost to them. People typically won't spend money unless they have to. It is known that we have huge environmental issues as well as terrible traffic congestion in some areas. Everyone seems to like the user pay idea, so tax the items that are known causes to the problem and a burden to the system. Smoking and alcohol are known issues that cause burdens to the system. Vehicles directly impact the infrastructure with both a maintenance cost and an environmental cost. The environmental cost also relates to the health problems that burden the system. So, by taxing these items, you directly make the users of the items pay for the system costs that are associated with them. You can't tax everything, because you can't separate the good from the bad in some instances, but the three listed are the top of the heap so to speak. A lot don't like the idea of taxes for these items. People are ok as long as someone else pays. This forces the users of the goods in question to fund the burden more so than everyone that doesn't use them.

[teufelhunden]

The problem with a user tax is that the argument inevitably becomes that it is a regressive tax unduly burdening the lower class. Every time the tax on cigarettes is raised you hear the same thing: it's an attack on the lower class because the lower class smokes more and it's $X per pack regardless of income, yadda yadda.

[DevilMan]

The difference with a user tax compared to a forced on everyone tax, is that not everyone "uses". Meaning you CHOOSE to do it or not. If you want to do it, then you pay the extra sales tax at the counter. If you CHOOSE to smoke and want health insurance and they raise the prices of your coverage because of it, then you CHOOSE that avenue. If you are in a high risk lifestyle or are an accident prone or ER regular and your insurance costs more then that's the way it goes. But forcing EVERYONE to do it one way is not a CHOICE.

Again, there should be regulations and restrictions put on the costs of services. NOT on the citizens! There should be NO difference in the cost of an XRay, MRI, EKG, EEG, etc from one person to the next. And yet, if you look at the numbers on the bill, if one person has insurance, and one person does not, then why are the numbers so overly inflated? Insurance is a BUSINESS!!! They are out to make money like anyone else. Well if they keep losing money because the hospitals keep gigging them, then they have to raise the prices to cover it. Even at that, you CHOOSE to pay or not pay for coverage. Is it right? NO! Is it fair? NO!!! But the fix is not in the form of making everyone pay into to something that not everyone uses. Nor is it in making some pay for others! It's in regulating the corruption and fleecing that comes from the hospitals and insurance companies. With NO regulation on how much treatment can cost a person, then how is anything supposed to get better?

As for the education can of worms I brought up... NO there is NO need to keep changing the books every year. I have several family members in the education line and they agree that it only costs money and causes trouble. There is NO difference in how 7 X 5 + 13 - 82 is calculated today than it was 100 years ago! When a teacher puts together a lesson plan or learns a way for the students to learn the material, they only have to throw it out after 1 use because next year, the book will have changed. The teachers spend more time trying to learn HOW to teach the subject matter than they have time to teach the students. Some of you obviously missed my point and want to go off on tangents about the ever evolving lines such as medical technology and computer and space and crap that you are talking about for your PHD and MBA and crap. That's NOT what I was talking about! Of course those need to be up to date. But if you notice I said PRIMARY schools and lower levels of college!

DM

[LK-13]

Beware the Painful Rectal Paris Hilton Itch...I tells ya!!

and or the Octa-Mom that would not die!!

[LK-13]

For the education of a can of worms!

Now who's supposed to pay for that?

[DevilMan]

Now who's supposed to pay for that?

It should be paid for by the community in which the books are used. By the city, town, county, etc. That's what the taxes are for. And at the same time the waste from the school board just choosing to buy new every year needs to be regulated. Either have a meeting where the books for the next year are gone through to make sure they are all alright, or something as such. And with systems of today, it's not hard to bar code and scan each book as it's issued to each student. Trust me I've done it for thousands of people with everything from books to thousand dollar laptops. Its possible and it's a lot cheaper than buying new every year. You issue the book to the student, it becomes theirs for the year. Keep in mind this isn't about Elementary school. For that level you issue the books to the teacher. You have an acceptable "LOSS" amount... like 10% Anything over that the teacher has to come up with a VERY good reason, or they have to pay up. For every 100 books I can see no more than 25 extra that should be needed as replacements. Again, I'm talking about a 5-6 year rotation where a school can buy the books for grade 2 one year, grade 3 the next, grade 4 after that, grade 5 and so on until you rotate back around to the beginning. High school and middle school the same way.

Colleges, the base level should be the same book for 3-5 years depending on the class.

Again, it boils down to the whole ideal that you have to keep spending money year after year, or you won't get money the next year. Well that money comes from taxes. If you want your kid to go to School A and you live in School A district, then you pay School A taxes.

DM

[DevilMan]

As a side note, if you don't have children then you should not be paying into a school tax. The minute that you start claiming a dependent on your tax forms, is the time you should be paying into the school system. Sure you will have 3-5 years that your kids are not in school initially, but then it gives you a chance for the school to get up to speed on costs and planning.

The point is to stop spending money, just because. Learn to be a better person and more frugal with the money, because in the end, it does come out of your pay check. (talking about people that earn their money from taxpayers)

Making laws and rules and regulations and everything else to mandate this that and the other isn't going to solve problems. Trying to become and teach people to be better in regards to respect to those around them will go much farther. Sure there are going to be dead beats in every system. But categorize them, keep them on a "watch list" so to speak and have special ways to handle them. By these people I mean bad check writers, felons, people with known legal issues.

DM

[CatoRockwell]

As a side note, if you don't have children then you should not be paying into a school tax. The minute that you start claiming a dependent on your tax forms, is the time you should be paying into the school system. Sure you will have 3-5 years that your kids are not in school initially, but then it gives you a chance for the school to get up to speed on costs and planning.

The point is to stop spending money, just because. Learn to be a better person and more frugal with the money, because in the end, it does come out of your pay check. (talking about people that earn their money from taxpayers)

Making laws and rules and regulations and everything else to mandate this that and the other isn't going to solve problems. Trying to become and teach people to be better in regards to respect to those around them will go much farther. Sure there are going to be dead beats in every system. But categorize them, keep them on a "watch list" so to speak and have special ways to handle them. By these people I mean bad check writers, felons, people with known legal issues.

DM

What if my kids aren't going to public schools?

[DevilMan]

What if my kids aren't going to public schools?

Then you pay into the private school sector. Face it... When you start claiming your kids there in itself is a way to count heads. I do believe that private schools can be kept private. If you wish to send your kid to a private school, then you simply attach the proper paperwork on your taxes at the end of the year, stating such and you get part/all of that tax collected back.

Is that too hard to do? I mean you can write off home office, mileage, supplies, network connections, etc on your taxes. It's up to you to prove that you did put your kid into a private school. There is more than one way to know whether or not you are telling the truth right? So why would you try and lie about it?

So you pay into the taxes throughout the year, you keep the receipt from the school for that year, and you file it with your taxes to get the amount that you paid into it back.

See? Not so hard is it?

DM

[Lohman446]

Then you pay into the private school sector. Face it... When you start claiming your kids there in itself is a way to count heads. I do believe that private schools can be kept private. If you wish to send your kid to a private school, then you simply attach the proper paperwork on your taxes at the end of the year, stating such and you get part/all of that tax collected back.

Is that too hard to do? I mean you can write off home office, mileage, supplies, network connections, etc on your taxes. It's up to you to prove that you did put your kid into a private school. There is more than one way to know whether or not you are telling the truth right? So why would you try and lie about it?

So you pay into the taxes throughout the year, you keep the receipt from the school for that year, and you file it with your taxes to get the amount that you paid into it back.

See? Not so hard is it?

DM

What if I rent? Around here public schools are supported by property taxes (among other things). If I rent and send my kid to a private school what then? If the government is going to get in healthcare they need to be in and run it through taxes. None of this halfway in "please god, I hope the insurance industry doesn't take advantage of its customers who MUST have it" nonsense we all know won't work. This just allows insurance companies to continue to pay ridiculous expenses and then pass them on to the consumer (high premiums) allowing the hospitals and insurance companies to get rich.

[DevilMan]

What if I rent? Around here public schools are supported by property taxes (among other things). If I rent and send my kid to a private school what then? If the government is going to get in healthcare they need to be in and run it through taxes. None of this halfway in "please god, I hope the insurance industry doesn't take advantage of its customers who MUST have it" nonsense we all know won't work. This just allows insurance companies to continue to pay ridiculous expenses and then pass them on to the consumer (high premiums) allowing the hospitals and insurance companies to get rich.

So are you saying you are FOR or AGAINST this Healthcare Reform Bill that just got passed?

As for how it's paid for, when I look at my W2 from my employer it has places for various taxes listed. It's a tax based on your income not how much property you have. Your dependents and such are not a factor to your property taxes. So there ya have it... another faulty way to do things... and yet it's how it's done. You rent, so you don't have to pay taxes to the school system. So instead of it being a property based taxed, why not an income tax? I know some of it is taken from me and I don't have any kids and never have had any. And yet I lose money to go to the system for the support of it.

DM

[cockerpunk]

i think the case for the cost effectiveness of the public schools is pretty well exemplified in the US.

good public schools is not only the morally right thing, its also the fiscally correct thing to do. public schools are far and way the most effective way to have a highly educated and thus VERY productive society. the number of times a good education pays itself off to both society and the person who gets said education is far and away the BEST investment a government could make in a society. it has better payback then military technology and the space program, and both of those are again, probably the two greatest technological and thus fiscal drives of our economy.

to claim otherwise just shows how dogmatic and ridiculous your world view is.

i have 10,000 in schools loans, thanks to going to states schools to get my engineering degree. the payback period for my loans in then roughly 1/5th or 1/6th of a year. yeah, in 2 months i will make back what i loaned out from the government.

but to get a true scale of just how efficiency public education really is, lets consider if the government paid for ALL my school. 4.5 years at 16,000 a year is about 72,000 dollars. that means the payback period on that school is just over a year.


yeah, in just over a year i will have contributed to a company and the economy as a whole about the same as i took from it getting my education.



that is BY FAR the most effective and reliable way to build wealth - education.


if you doom our public schools, you doom the economy. you also destroy the American dollar, GDP, and world standing, including military power around the world.

education ... possibly the single most valuable thing a person can have.



are public schools socialist - you bet your ***. are they a key to a strong economy, a powerful nation, a high standard of living - you bet your ***.

[teufelhunden]

Cockerpunk - I agree with your sentiment. However, the entire reason for employment is to leverage you to earn more off your labor than they pay you. So really, you'd hope to earn for your firm about 3x (in my industry, at least) what your salary is. So really, you're earning back the cost of college more quickly than you state.

On the other hand, you must consider the cost of K-12 education as well.

Let's start at $10k/student/year. I think that's a bit lower than the average in my area (NJ). We'll also assume an increase of 5%/year, that seems reasonable and about what the school budget tends to increase by per year.

K: 5k (half day)
1: 10,500
2: 11025
3: 11576
4: 12155
etc.

total would come out around 164k (run it thru excel if ya don't believe me). Still a reasonable investment in the situation above (though one should consider this is probably a student starting school today, not 15 years ago or whatever).

The problem is when it isn't a good investment, imo. When we spend the $164k and the person goes and becomes a car thief, a mobster, a deadbeat, whatever. Or they screw around thru school and end up contributing far below their "potential"

[cockerpunk]

Cockerpunk - I agree with your sentiment. However, the entire reason for employment is to leverage you to earn more off your labor than they pay you. So really, you'd hope to earn for your firm about 3x (in my industry, at least) what your salary is. So really, you're earning back the cost of college more quickly than you state.

On the other hand, you must consider the cost of K-12 education as well.

Let's start at $10k/student/year. I think that's a bit lower than the average in my area (NJ). We'll also assume an increase of 5%/year, that seems reasonable and about what the school budget tends to increase by per year.

K: 5k (half day)
1: 10,500
2: 11025
3: 11576
4: 12155
etc.

total would come out around 164k (run it thru excel if ya don't believe me). Still a reasonable investment in the situation above (though one should consider this is probably a student starting school today, not 15 years ago or whatever).

The problem is when it isn't a good investment, imo. When we spend the $164k and the person goes and becomes a car thief, a mobster, a deadbeat, whatever. Or they screw around thru school and end up contributing far below their "potential"

164k? not a good investment?

imagine how productive a person would be in society without a k-12 education. you say we have too many car thieves right now? what do you think people will do with less education then a kinder-gardener?

that point aside ...

164k, even if they literally live in poverty there whole lives, that is 20k or less per year. that means in about 8 years they will have paid off there k-12 education. even in poverty. 8 years.


education is the basis for the generation of wealth. period. the ultimate equation for life is K=$, how much you know is how much money you are worth. and ultimately, under economics, the generation of wealth is the value that everything is judged by.

keep in mind when i say knowledge, that doesn't mean math, or science, or any specific thing. it means the knowledge of how to bake a better cake, or how to sell more coffee, or anything. ultimately, wealth comes from knowledge, and knowledge comes from education.

[teufelhunden]

I was agreeing with you bud, read, don't skim.