Global Warming,eh?

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  • OPBN
    OldPBNoob

    • Sep 2008
    • 5240

    #61
    So what exactly is the difference between scientists that are for proving gloval warming being funded by subjective sources and scientists that disagree with them being funded by subjective sources? Just because those scientists providing data and studies to the contrary doesnt make them any less valid.



    For anyone not wanting to click on the link:

    Originally posted by link
    In the climate change debate, or more generally for any environmental issue, there exists a widespread assumption that funds provided by "big business" are used to promote falsehoods, while funds going to environmental organizations represent the grassroots will of the people. The people are like David going up against an industrial Goliath, hoping to spread truth in the face of insurmountable odds.

    There is little doubt that the vast majority of the citizens who donate to environmental causes view the situation in this way.


    Funding Shows Hidden Agenda

    But a report released on April 1 by the George C. Marshall Institute, a Washington-based science policy group, looks at the major donors to environmental groups for climate-related activities. It finds the vast majority of those donors represent and promote left-leaning causes.

    Historically, those causes often involve lobbying Congress to promote a specific agenda. A startling example of this is the recent report of a former officer of the Pew Charitable Trusts admitting Pew heavily funded a number of private interests to make it look like there was a grassroots movement in favor of campaign finance reform, which was later passed by Congress.

    A wide variety of charitable foundations fund organizations whose very existence depends upon a belief in environmental crises. Does anyone really believe that organizations such as Environmental Defense, Natural Resources Defense Council, and World Resources Institute would breathe a collective sigh of relief if the balance of evidence were to show that global warming was going to be relatively small, benign, and even beneficial?

    I know at least two climate scientists that have received MacArthur Fellowship "genius grants"--large, no-strings-attached monetary awards--for their work on raising awareness of the threat posed by climate change. I wonder if there will ever be a MacArthur Fellowship for any researcher who finds evidence for a much reduced threat to humanity from human-induced climate change.


    Funding Requires New Scares

    While new environmental regulations might be an annoyance for private industry, the fact is that the bulk of any new environmental-related costs to those industries are simply passed on to the public through more expensive goods and services. By contrast, spearheading environmental issues is the only reason for the existence of environmental organizations.

    Since all organizations have self-preservation as their number one priority, it is the environmental groups that are the most vulnerable to a loss of public interest, and thus funding. Environmental awareness is a luxury of the world's wealthiest countries, and its funding depends on (often apocalyptic) fear. An electric utility, by contrast, will continue to experience a demand for electricity (even from the homes of environmentalists) no matter what environmental regulations are passed by Congress that affect that utility.


    Left's Funding Dwarfs Right's

    In my experience, industry is reluctant to fund environmental research in support of its views, deferring instead to the federal government to fund what is, one hopes, a balanced and impartial environmental research program. The U.S. government funds a whopping $2 billion per year in climate-related research.

    While the distribution of these funds to universities and private companies might be expected to be policy-neutral, the real situation isn't quite so simple. Government agencies that disperse research funds have an infrastructure that depends upon congressional support for their existence. Their level of continued support depends upon the level of the threat perceived by the public, which then justifies the expenditure of tax dollars.

    I'm not questioning the potential threat that climate change presents--it is indeed an issue worthy of the investment in research. I am questioning, however, the perception that environmental organizations, and federal funding, are policy- and politically neutral.

    Someone once said it's not a matter of who is biased (because everyone is); the real question is, which bias is the best bias to be biased with? The more money we spend on specific environmental threats, the less there is to devote to other issues.

    Funding decisions will be best when made by well-informed citizens and policymakers. But let's not be naive about unbiased motives. They simply do not exist.
    Last edited by OPBN; 05-26-2011, 09:53 AM. Reason: added link
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    • cockerpunk
      Haters Gonna Hate
      • Sep 2004
      • 1383

      #62
      Originally posted by OPBN
      So what exactly is the difference between scientists that are for proving gloval warming being funded by subjective sources and scientists that disagree with them being funded by subjective sources? Just because those scientists providing data and studies to the contrary doesnt make them any less valid.
      the issue is that for the most part scientists are not in disagreement, and lack the pure profit motivation that the status quo for big business is not there for scientists.
      "because every vengeful cop with a lesbian daughter, is having a bad day, and looking for someone to blame"

      Comment

      • VailSkibum
        Go Big or Go Home
        • May 2009
        • 254

        #63
        Originally posted by cockerpunk
        the issue is that for the most part scientists are not in disagreement, and lack the pure profit motivation that the status quo for big business is not there for scientists.
        Thats BS (to coin your phrase.) There are thousands that disagree with AGW. This link is to an incomplete list, which means there is more. (At least thats my un-scientific hypothesis.)

        and here: http://www.tulsabeacon.com/?p=462

        Are all these scientists wrong too?
        Or is it because they don't agree w/ your position?
        Please explain this to the Great Unwashed.
        Last edited by VailSkibum; 05-26-2011, 11:36 AM.

        Comment

        • VailSkibum
          Go Big or Go Home
          • May 2009
          • 254

          #64
          31,487 scientists sign a petition AGAINST global warming.
          Here: http://www.petitionproject.org/
          I know you like pictures so....

          Last edited by VailSkibum; 05-26-2011, 01:07 PM.

          Comment

          • BigEvil
            www.BigEvilOnline.com

            • Feb 2005
            • 9333

            #65
            pictars, LULZ

            Comment

            • Army
              Moderator of DOOOOOOOOMMM!

              • Oct 2000
              • 5785

              #66
              Once again I ask:

              What's so bad about palm trees in Nova Scotia?

              Comment

              • Ando
                Magusmaximus
                • Jun 2009
                • 4144

                #67
                Who's ever heard of Canadian palm trees?
                My Feedback

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                • dahoeb
                  Registered User

                  • Jul 2004
                  • 862

                  #68
                  i wasn't corrilating anything in that statment, just commenting that the rise in tempratures was faster then anything we have seen before



                  It sure seemed as though you were implying it is due to man, which is what your whole argument seems to be about in this thread. My prior statement regarding correlation/causation stands.

                  Looking at the graph below....unless my eyes deceive me, it doesn't look like our temps are really climbing much faster than any of these other times in the last couple hundred thousand years. I found some neat graphs going back millions of years and it makes me wonder why anyone ever thinks that there is such a thing as "normal" climate.

                  <a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x389/dahoeb/?action=view&amp;current=800px-Vostok_Petit_data_svg-1.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x389/dahoeb/800px-Vostok_Petit_data_svg-1.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>






                  of course it does, and yes, we have a good idea of the co2 bufferng ablity of the earth. we are destorying the co2 buffering ablity while putting massive amounts of co2 into the system ... simple addition is all you need.

                  Claiming something as dynamic and ever changing as that is "simple addition" is an understatement I'd say. But who knows, you may well be right. But given the relatively benign nature of CO2 and the fact that it comprises of 4/100ths of 1% of the ats. doesn't convince me it's the culprit behind GW.



                  the 800 year lag time hasn't been disproven. its real. no one besides gore has pretended otherwise. the positive feedback mechnatism of methane gases is what cuases it.

                  Because of the swamps or whatever you said in a previous post, right? Really? Swamp gas? I thought they were just responsible for UFO sightings, now this? And you aren't the least bit skeptical of that? What happens when a large volcanic eruption occurs releasing methane? Shouldn't we be boiling by now?



                  that increase in heat is real though - therefore worthwhile to measure.

                  Yeah, the increase in heat NOT caused by CO2 or greenhouse gas. An increase in heat caused by asphalt. Big and important distinction.



                  again ... ??? the last ice age was 10,000 years ago.

                  Yes, lets try this again....so what? 10k years is not that terribly long, especially in geographic terms. Just a few thousand years later the first primitive empires would start springing up in the Mesopotamia. Your very distant relatives were hunting wooly mammoths on a glacier somewhere. And all that disappeared without an Escalade. The fact that nature can, all by itself, sink into an iceage and then completely transform again without any factories or power plants is pretty remarkable and not something that should be so lightly or smugly discarded.



                  actualy no, peer review was done LONG before scientific jounrals. peer review is a fundamental part of the scientifc process by which other scientists repeat and confirm test reswualts. and if they don't agree with the resualts someone else got, they try to figure out why.

                  "The peer-review process was established forthe benefit of editors who did not have good
                  knowledge across all the fields that their journals addressed. It provided a "sanity check" to avoid the risk of publishing papers which were so outlandish that the journal would be ridiculed and lose its reputation."
                  -The Science and Public Policy Institute.

                  I guess they're just completely lost in the sauce. Thanks for clearing that up for me. You still failed to address the MUCH more important point of a possible conflict of interest inherent in this process.




                  acutally like i pointed out before - YOU MAKE MORE MONEY AS A SCIENTIST PROVING OTHER POEPLE WRONG. ergo the onyl economic forces in science are pushing the opposite direction.

                  Lets not be naive. I was pretty specific and deliberate in pointing out climate scientists (for a reason), a community that's invested quite a bit of capital and not to mention the credibility and repulation at stake.

                  Scientists are just like any other person on this earth, contrary to what you probably believe. Most of them are probably perfectly happy and secure in their $100-150k and have no ambition to be the next Hawkins, Hubble or Einstein. They enjoy their status and being liked by their peers and getting regular grants for studies of a trendy scientific milk cow. Heck, if they push the message just enough, some might even get a cable news spot now and then! YAY! It all comes down to, why would they want to shoot the goose that lays the golden egg?




                  so lets see the experts. jounralists are paid to sell adds, and they are nowhere near experts on climate.

                  Ummm...I just said that journalists WEREN'T experts..... I threw in a tad of sarcasm that might not have translated. I said they cite experts or bring them on their programs. I'm sure youtube will give all the clips you want.


                  the only scientists who get shunned from science are ones that arn't doing science. most often they are doing politics or religion.

                  then you have the opposite going on - follow the money right?

                  the oil and power companies in our country have spent MILLIONS on killing global warming. MILLIONS on lobbying policians, MILLIONS on adds and movies ....

                  if they arn't making trillions of dollars by killing global warming off, i'll eat my hat.

                  Yikes.... Where to start. I've never seen a scientist against global warming because of "god" and religion. I didn't realize it was so widespread.....Interestingly, this is the second time you reference god and creationists, I didn't realize global warming had anything to do with religion. It may be on that level for some...... The problem with science isn't science, its scientists. It's practiced by men who are just as flawed, egotistical, complacent, lazy, etc. as any other. To put them on a pedestal above anyone else isn't a recipe for success.

                  As far as those evil oil companies.....lets look at the BILLIONS (if not more) that companies like GE stand to make.... or the immeasurable influence through regulation that politicians have to gain. Wait, our government would NEVER try that...I mean, the history of governments throughout thousands of years of history show that govts are almost ALWAYS passive and the opposite of power hungy. Only the most altruistic and best among us get into the business of politics....

                  But I digress.... Who's more influential? The power hungry politicians in world leading governments in western Europe and America, the Green industries that are springing up left and right pushing various, inefficient green energy solutions on us and major companies like GE....or oil companies. Answer: The oil companies ofcourse!

                  On a side note: It's funny how big oil is always attacked for their profits and profit margins, but big Apple, big Pharmaceutical, Big Education, etc are NEVER mentioned, even though some of those industries are larger than the oil biz. I'm just a cynic, what do I know.

                  Side note part 2: Also funny how nobody makes a peep to some of the most pollutant countries like India and China. It's ironic that every earth saving regulation imposed here, forces more jobs over there, and only fuels their pollution creating ways. Net loss.

                  Anyways, I'm not under the illusion that I'll convince you, but I enjoy good debates like this, maybe I'll hear something I haven't heard before.
                  Last edited by dahoeb; 05-27-2011, 12:21 AM.

                  Comment

                  • cockerpunk
                    Haters Gonna Hate
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 1383

                    #69
                    Originally posted by dahoeb
                    It sure seemed as though you were implying it is due to man, which is what your whole argument seems to be about in this thread. My prior statement regarding correlation/causation stands.

                    Looking at the graph below....unless my eyes deceive me, it doesn't look like our temps are really climbing much faster than any of these other times in the last couple hundred thousand years. I found some neat graphs going back millions of years and it makes me wonder why anyone ever thinks that there is such a thing as "normal" climate.

                    <a href="http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x389/dahoeb/?action=view&amp;current=800px-Vostok_Petit_data_svg-1.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x389/dahoeb/800px-Vostok_Petit_data_svg-1.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>




                    actually, if you look on the local scale, rather then the geological scale, the increase in tempratures in the last 30 years are much more dramartic then we have ever seen a 30 year shift. on that graph, 30 years dont even show up

                    Claiming something as dynamic and ever changing as that is "simple addition" is an understatement I'd say. But who knows, you may well be right. But given the relatively benign nature of CO2 and the fact that it comprises of 4/100ths of 1% of the ats. doesn't convince me it's the culprit behind GW.

                    its percent composition doesn't mean anything. arsinic at 4 parts per million will kill you, does that mea you shouldn't be concerned by it?

                    Because of the swamps or whatever you said in a previous post, right? Really? Swamp gas? I thought they were just responsible for UFO sightings, now this? And you aren't the least bit skeptical of that? What happens when a large volcanic eruption occurs releasing methane? Shouldn't we be boiling by now?

                    swamps contain billions of tons of methane, which is a much worse greenhouse gas then co2. i find it funny that you doubt this explianation, yet you frequently post the geological time scale graph that is the proof of this concept.

                    Yeah, the increase in heat NOT caused by CO2 or greenhouse gas. An increase in heat caused by asphalt. Big and important distinction.

                    why? asphalt now not cuased by humans? asphalt just naturally and spontaniously paves itself?

                    Yes, lets try this again....so what? 10k years is not that terribly long, especially in geographic terms. Just a few thousand years later the first primitive empires would start springing up in the Mesopotamia. Your very distant relatives were hunting wooly mammoths on a glacier somewhere. And all that disappeared without an Escalade. The fact that nature can, all by itself, sink into an iceage and then completely transform again without any factories or power plants is pretty remarkable and not something that should be so lightly or smugly discarded.

                    of coruse, and these patterns alow us to figure out what actually effects our climate. that why we know of things like the 800 year lag time, the positive feedback mechanism with methane and everything we have been talking about.

                    "The peer-review process was established forthe benefit of editors who did not have good
                    knowledge across all the fields that their journals addressed. It provided a "sanity check" to avoid the risk of publishing papers which were so outlandish that the journal would be ridiculed and lose its reputation."
                    -The Science and Public Policy Institute.

                    I guess they're just completely lost in the sauce. Thanks for clearing that up for me. You still failed to address the MUCH more important point of a possible conflict of interest inherent in this process.


                    no, peer review is an extention of repeatablity in science. you know that part of the scientific method where poeple repeat and double check other poeples work when they doubt it - that is ALSO peer review.

                    Lets not be naive. I was pretty specific and deliberate in pointing out climate scientists (for a reason), a community that's invested quite a bit of capital and not to mention the credibility and repulation at stake.

                    Scientists are just like any other person on this earth, contrary to what you probably believe. Most of them are probably perfectly happy and secure in their $100-150k and have no ambition to be the next Hawkins, Hubble or Einstein. They enjoy their status and being liked by their peers and getting regular grants for studies of a trendy scientific milk cow. Heck, if they push the message just enough, some might even get a cable news spot now and then! YAY! It all comes down to, why would they want to shoot the goose that lays the golden egg?


                    the golden egg is the truth. the scientists who can prove it wrong will make much more then 150k, and have his name go down in history ... so you bet your but the scientific community would prove it wrong if they could.

                    Ummm...I just said that journalists WEREN'T experts..... I threw in a tad of sarcasm that might not have translated. I said they cite experts or bring them on their programs. I'm sure youtube will give all the clips you want.

                    sure, jounralists are prone to exgasgeration. this has some effect on the validity of a scientific theory how?

                    Yikes.... Where to start. I've never seen a scientist against global warming because of "god" and religion. I didn't realize it was so widespread.....Interestingly, this is the second time you reference god and creationists, I didn't realize global warming had anything to do with religion. It may be on that level for some...... The problem with science isn't science, its scientists. It's practiced by men who are just as flawed, egotistical, complacent, lazy, etc. as any other. To put them on a pedestal above anyone else isn't a recipe for success.

                    i often around with creationists, and the arguemnts go LITTERALLY IDENTICALLY. so i often compare the two. a frequent creationist argument is "there are all these scientists being shunned by the scientific community who disagree with evolution, its a conspiracy!" but in reality these poeple arn't doing science, and thats why its not being accepted.

                    As far as those evil oil companies.....lets look at the BILLIONS (if not more) that companies like GE stand to make.... or the immeasurable influence through regulation that politicians have to gain. Wait, our government would NEVER try that...I mean, the history of governments throughout thousands of years of history show that govts are almost ALWAYS passive and the opposite of power hungy. Only the most altruistic and best among us get into the business of politics....

                    sure, when the find the next source of energy, they will push t big time. key word - WHEN

                    But I digress.... Who's more influential? The power hungry politicians in world leading governments in western Europe and America, the Green industries that are springing up left and right pushing various, inefficient green energy solutions on us and major companies like GE....or oil companies. Answer: The oil companies ofcourse!

                    bingo, hense the well funded and well publicized anti-global warming orginizations.

                    On a side note: It's funny how big oil is always attacked for their profits and profit margins, but big Apple, big Pharmaceutical, Big Education, etc are NEVER mentioned, even though some of those industries are larger than the oil biz. I'm just a cynic, what do I know.

                    Side note part 2: Also funny how nobody makes a peep to some of the most pollutant countries like India and China. It's ironic that every earth saving regulation imposed here, forces more jobs over there, and only fuels their pollution creating ways. Net loss.

                    actually china and india are frequently mentioned in worldwide talks about pollution.

                    Anyways, I'm not under the illusion that I'll convince you, but I enjoy good debates like this, maybe I'll hear something I haven't heard before.

                    yous last statment makes me very puzzled. never herd of and doubt the positive feedback mechanism based on methane, but have had debates like this before?

                    with who? obviously someone without even a basic understanding of modern climate models.
                    "because every vengeful cop with a lesbian daughter, is having a bad day, and looking for someone to blame"

                    Comment

                    • cockerpunk
                      Haters Gonna Hate
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 1383

                      #70
                      Originally posted by VailSkibum
                      31,487 scientists sign a petition AGAINST global warming.
                      Here: http://www.petitionproject.org/
                      I know you like pictures so....

                      that last graph is acutally a complete fabircation. here is the real graph -



                      that was uncovered when the authors of that graph were interveiwed for durkin's movie. friis christianson and adiel spencmark are both well known climate skeptics, and yet they stated after the movie was released that the graph attributed to them was fake, and there comments were edited is such a way that "boarders on fruad"

                      the second to last graph is also flawed - that again is a friis christianson graph (and its flawed in the same way as the one i linked). this is because smoothing was perfromed on the entire graph, except the last 30 years becuase at the date of publishing, it was not available.

                      when it became available, the graph has a flat spot in solar activity for the last 30 years. hense why i have been claiming that this entire thread.

                      im not sure what the second graph is attempting to prove ... glacial covering vs fuel source? doesn't make much sense.

                      and the frist graph doesn't prove anything either.



                      so you got two graphs that are inconsiquential, and you got two graphs with the same, known, problems. again, a problem that climate scientists (including the skeptics that wrote the graphs!) have known about for more then a decade.

                      well played.

                      this is why its so annoying debunking all these rumor mill arguments. even the skeptics who disagree with climate change disagree with the rumor mill arguments. why? beucase they acutally know the science. if you want to be a skeptic - learn the science!



                      as for the consenus - http://www.logicalscience.com/consensus/consensusD1.htm
                      Last edited by cockerpunk; 05-27-2011, 06:47 AM.
                      "because every vengeful cop with a lesbian daughter, is having a bad day, and looking for someone to blame"

                      Comment

                      • sjrtk
                        Clown under the bed
                        • May 2009
                        • 828

                        #71
                        Originally posted by cockerpunk
                        you can't make money doing and agreeing with everyone - thats a poor scientist.

                        Clearly you have never been under contract with the govt. You tell them what they want to hear and you funding continues, it has nothing to do with the truth of the matter. As long as you produce the information they want they will keep funding you. That is were the professional part gets in the way, ohh and fudging the numbers when they don't fit right. But i have and do actually research things (scientific papers) don't get me wrong these guys are smart, but they are still full of it plus if there is a way to profit from it THEY WILL AND DO DO IT. Govt funding is great for producing mass results one way or another.

                        Comment

                        • dahoeb
                          Registered User

                          • Jul 2004
                          • 862

                          #72
                          Providing leading stock market analysis and commentary. Find your new favorite stock, read our hot stock market news. New personal finance resources.


                          just an interesting article related to the discussion.

                          Comment

                          • blake20
                            Team Green Devils
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 215

                            #73
                            Just a little FYI I used to be a Warmer, then I looked at the facts, and followed the money trail, and have changed my mind on the whole thing. Today's science is corrupted with greed and notoriety



                            Cockerpunk I have a few questions for you to answer, since you seem to be the warmer here.

                            First off let's talk about Climate Science itself. It is a new science that has only really been around since the 50's. So it reality it's in it's infancy, compared to say Physics, Chemistry, Geology, Biology, or Astronomy. Would you agree?

                            But climate Science takes all sciences into account. Would you agree?

                            So a climate Scientist has to have excellent knowledge of at least All the ones listed above. Would you agree?

                            Do you believe in CAGW? (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming) That the seas will rise, it will snow more, and we will have droughts, and dogs and cats will be sleeping together?? (ok that last one was a joke) But you get my drift. End of the world scenario!

                            The climate scientists use models to show what is going to happen. Problem is they can not use the same models to hind-cast what has happened in the climate before. If they can't do this, would you agree that the models they are using are flawed??

                            We should be happy that the planet is warming because if it's not, we are headed back into an Ice age, as most of the earth's time has been spent in an Ice ages.

                            Nice graph for you showing temp vs CO2. If you notice most of the time if the temperature is not increasing, we head for a Ice age. That is why, this time period is called an interglacial. Would you not agree with that statement that we are in an interglacial and temps should be increasing??

                            As for peer review papers: The release of the climategate emails have pretty much destroyed the credibility of the peer review process.

                            by Dr. Roger Pielke Senior There is an informative article by Ross McKittrick McKitrick, Ross R. (2011) “Bias in the Peer Review Process: A Cautionary and


                            So do you think that it's ok for members of the "climate science" to review each others work and someone who has a different view to be silenced??

                            You keep talking that the data is there, but it's not, even Phil Jones (of the CRU) said that there has been no statistical increase in temperatures for the last 15 years. While at the same time the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has increased. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8511670.stm

                            I also call into question the Temperature records that we are using today. It has a warm Bias due to adjustments made by climate scientists. They seem to be corrupting data to show even more of a warming trend. New Zealand this is just 1 example http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/0...e-train-wreck/

                            Plus UHI (urban heat Island) effect is not taken into account. An explanation of UHI http://www.epa.gov/heatisld/

                            What really turned me around was climategate and the Quotes from Government officials and Climate scientists. http://green-agenda.com/index.html
                            Last edited by blake20; 06-17-2011, 09:00 AM. Reason: punctuation

                            Comment

                            • ProblemKinder
                              Colossians 3:8
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 861

                              #74
                              guys stop fighting, I'm SUPER SERIAL!!!

                              besides, there are much more urgent matters at hand...

                              Comment

                              • VailSkibum
                                Go Big or Go Home
                                • May 2009
                                • 254

                                #75

                                http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-solstice.html

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