The Rest Of The Story

[Frizzle Fry]

According to Evan Nappen, Switzerland PURPOSELY hides its gun laws. The reason being that if no one knows what they are they cannot circumvent them.

Sounds familiar, are you sure that's not Massachusetts? Here, more often than not, the people enforcing the laws often don't know what they are. Keeps everyone confused and wary.

Not necessarily. This is an adult topic, something you have proven over and over again you are not ready to handle. Get a job, grow up a little, maybe even kiss a girl or two if you can and then in a few years you can put your big boy undies on and join the conversation.

I think he's functionally illiterate as well as ignorant, at least based on his responses to my post. I've had enough laughs, g'night folks.

[wetwrks]

Not entirely invalid; Washington DC require strict compliance with registration (even long arms require registration). Chicago also comes to mind. New York is another city. All cities that have historically high crime rates. I feel confidant without knowing the laws off hand that California is probably similar.

If you want to look into these facts, check the FBI website or the Bureau of Justice Statistics, they are you best bet for researching the issue.

He asked what the statistics are for registered guns in the US...as a good chunk of the US does not register firearms it is impossible to answer that question thus making it invalid. At best you *might* be able to gestimate based on the limited registered firearms from specific disctricts.

The other part of this question that isn't addressed....of those registered firearms...hom many of those crimes are committed by the owner of the firearm and how many are committed by someone who has stolen that firearm or is in possession of the firearm without the legal owners permission.

[debruynda]

He asked what the statistics are for registered guns in the US...as a good chunk of the US does not register firearms it is impossible to answer that question thus making it invalid. At best you *might* be able to gestimate based on the limited registered firearms from specific disctricts.

The other part of this question that isn't addressed....of those registered firearms...hom many of those crimes are committed by the owner of the firearm and how many are committed by someone who has stolen that firearm or is in possession of the firearm without the legal owners permission.

I see your point.

[BTAutoMag]

yea, that was my question basicly. of the violent crimes that are commited, how many are with a gun legally owned by the commitor

[debruynda]

My sense of the matter would be that if it were possible to determine the number of gun related crimes where the gun used was not registered* would be a useful statistic to argue for/against mandatory registration (as the evidence may suggest) but since as our esteemed colleague Wetwrks has accurately pointed out, compulsory registration is the exception rather than the norm it would be impossible to generate an accurate figure unless you tried to extrapolate the numbers from the few jurisdictions that do require the registration of firearms.

*Assuming, of course, that the study were done in a jurisdiction that required registration and the gun used was not registered or used by someone who was not the registered owner.

[BTAutoMag]

well the point that I have in my head is that if I were going to go out and have intent to do any illegal activity with a firearm it sure in hell wouldnt be mine

[wetwrks]

well the point that I have in my head is that if I were going to go out and have intent to do any illegal activity with a firearm it sure in hell wouldnt be mine

Thing is...most criminals don't care where the gun comes from. They don't get into more trouble if the gun is theirs...they get into more trouble if the gun is stolen. The reason most criminals use guns that arn't theirs is because they have gotten into trouble before and arn't allowed to legally own a gun so they steal them, they buy them black market, they have a girlfriend buy it for them...

The anti gun crowd seems to think that registering guns, making guns harder to purchase, etc...will remove guns from the hands of criminals...but that isn't the case. Most criminals don't go thru the legal process of buying a gun. They will even specifically target police and military to get guns.

[debruynda]

Thing is...most criminals don't care where the gun comes from. They don't get into more trouble if the gun is theirs...they get into more trouble if the gun is stolen. The reason most criminals use guns that arn't theirs is because they have gotten into trouble before and arn't allowed to legally own a gun so they steal them, they buy them black market, they have a girlfriend buy it for them...

The anti gun crowd seems to think that registering guns, making guns harder to purchase, etc...will remove guns from the hands of criminals...but that isn't the case. Most criminals don't go thru the legal process of buying a gun. They will even specifically target police and military to get guns.

And therein lies the rub, and specifically what I can't wrap my brain around concerning the anti-gun crowd. I'm not a fan of government run lists of any sort as the potential for abuse far outweighs that for good. Even more so, I can't imagine one good thing mandatory registration would accomplish other than informing the government which law abiding citizens possess firearms, which seems to me a bit unnecessary.

[BigEvil]

And therein lies the rub, and specifically what I can't wrap my brain around concerning the anti-gun crowd. I'm not a fan of government run lists of any sort as the potential for abuse far outweighs that for good. Even more so, I can't imagine one good thing mandatory registration would accomplish other than informing the government which law abiding citizens possess firearms, which seems to me a bit unnecessary.

Exactly. History proves over and over where this leads. I guess you need to know history to understand this and if the only place you get your information from is the tv or newspapers then a person like that has no place in a conversation like thi. If you don't like guns, don't buy one. Disarming law abiding citizens leads to all sorts of bad things. The government having a list of armed citizens leads to bad things. Period.

If you are truly interested in reducing gun crime and getting the illegal weapons of the streets, registration and weapons bans don't work.

[BEEFYDAN]

According to the FBI in 2002, only 1 out of every 6 guns used in the commission of a crime was obtained legally. The links I used to have referenced are no longer valid, but I did use these numbers for a college-level research paper in 2004. As I recall, they weren't that hard to find, I really don't have the motivation to re-research all of this, since in my mind, gun control is disproven on statistics alone. When gun control laws are passed, crime rates rise, when gun control is loosened, crime goes down. It really is that simple. Take, for example, my home state of Arizona. Recently (within the past two years) a law was passed which makes it legal to carry (concealed or unconcealed. Loaded, or unloaded) just about anywhere in the state, without a license. The crime rate, which has been falling since 2000, never so much as had a hiccup after the law was passed. I, as well as many people whom I interact with, regularly carry firearms, and it really is not even noticed anymore. (except for the Californians who insist on infesting the state, like a bunch of rats leaving a sinking ship.) The funniest part of the whole process was the anti-gun yo-yos, who were concerned that the state was going to spontaneously erupt into lethal gunfire the instant the law was passed. Insisting that Arizona was going to turn back into the wild west, we were supposedly going to become homicidal maniacs with no choice but to kill each other with these evil guns, since, you know, we were carrying them around and everything. I have had the occasion to converse with many law enforcement workers (in fact I live across the street from the Mohave County Sheriff) who have absolutely no problems with, and support these sorts of laws, because it lightens their work-load tremendously. Since the law was passed, in my hometown alone, I can bring up at least 10 instances where a concealed weapon was used to stop or interrupt crimes in progress, and nobody got killed. My personal opinion is that only those people who have an illogical fear of guns are the ones who want them gone. There is not much backing their arguments besides "guns are scary". There is my two-cents. Beefy out.

[BigEvil]

Dan, I suspect the crime rate hasn't fallen because of the influx of illegal aliens and all of the drug running issues. Just my guess.

[wetwrks]

Exactly. History proves over and over where this leads. I guess you need to know history to understand this and if the only place you get your information from is the tv or newspapers then a person like that has no place in a conversation like thi. If you don't like guns, don't buy one. Disarming law abiding citizens leads to all sorts of bad things. The government having a list of armed citizens leads to bad things. Period.

Just an example...

[BEEFYDAN]

Dan, I suspect the crime rate hasn't fallen because of the influx of illegal aliens and all of the drug running issues. Just my guess.

I may have lost ya on the rant. The crime rate was already going down before the law was passed. It is still going down despite the influx of illegal immigrants, despite the anti-gun yoyos predictions of an radical increase in crime rates. The most cited reason local cops have given me for liking the law, is that it has allowed them to devote more manpower to other things, such as crimes committed by illegal immigrants, mexican drug cartels etc... The number of emergency calls in rural areas has dropped dramatically. These calls eat up an enormous amount of manpower, since the county I am in, Mohave County, is very large, and mostly rural. not only has the number of calls dropped, but the nature of the calls has apparently lessened in severity. The assumption is that people either aren't being victimized as much, or the people are sorting the problems out by their own means. Damn, I think I may have been sucked in. Damn you BigEvil..............Damn you to hellllll................................Let me outta this endless argument.................let me out...................

[going_home]

Let me outta this endless argument.................let me out...................

Thats easy, just give Barry your guns.

[BEEFYDAN]

I am sure the Bammer would do just that, if he could.