ATTN...sifu01

[JRSJKD]

high kicking

As long as their skill level is below yours, you might be fine. Most systems of grappling I know of are waiting for you to punch or kick. Thats when they're gonna shoot in. They want you to kick, kicks are the easiest to shoot in on.......especially high kicks to the face. I love high kickers, its like getting a X-mas present delivered right to the front door. High kick are not only the slowest due to the ammount of distance they have to travel but also create the biggest openings. As a matter of fact, I'll bait by dropping my hands for you

Junior

[MantisMag]

haha. you're right. i would never kick to the head. that's just dumb. with the head snapping back part i meant a punch. but i also have a tendency to kick people in the solar plexus if they open their arms. if the guy is good obviously i don't get a chance to do that but it does happen. same with kicking. certain kicks are just very slow and if i see you winding up for one i'm just gonna kick you first. it's not really skill. i'm just very quick. in order to shoot in on me you'd have to catch me by surprise or be a LOT faster than me. so far i haven't come across anybody that fast. not saying i never will. but someone who is would be very rare.

since you're into grappling tell me. what do you do when somebody tries to move in on you? what sort of counters would you use?

[Rocp15126]

well one common kind of counter to double and single leg takedowns is the sprawl. when your opponent shoots in for your lower area, you kind of scoot your lower half back and out and use your weight and upper body half to push your opponent down. (It's hard to explain, easy if you see it)

I have also seen people use a hip toss/sacrifice throw and a firemans carry to counter a grappler's initial shoot. Of course if your not a grappler you probably don't want to try a throw.

If I can, I like to roll backwards with the opponent into my guard, lock my legs, get him into a neck crank/gillotine.


If I don't want to grapple and keep him at range I might try a finger jab to the eye or an oblique kick to the shin/knee/foot.

[MantisMag]

Originally posted by vf-xx
I suppose it just matters what your personal skill level is.(but isn't that the case in everything?!)

so true.

rocp- i tend to use that first one a lot. i usually hit him in the back of the head instead of pushing though. a fist or elbow to the back of the head/neck really hurts. unless your opponent is a real psycho it'll also probably disorient him. if he's hopped up on drugs or something and can't feel it then you're royally screwed. i hope i never fight somebody in that condition.

[JRSJKD]

hmmmmm.........

Theres a million different answers for that. One, grappling is by far NOT my favorite. I bother to learn it because its so popular right now and because its popular you need to know how to defend against it should it arise. The best way to learn how to defend against anything is to train in it. Then youl have an understanding of what the mindset is like. One of the biggest reasons why grappling is so good is because in order for anyone to use striking of any kind you must bring yourself close enough to hit that person. If you can hit me, I can grab you. It really is that simple. Grappling happens, standing up or on the ground. The grappler will always have the advantage cause he just want to get close to you. If you want to hit him, you'll be doing exactly what he want's you to do. Not that there aren't things you can do to someone shooting in on you, but they also involve grappling. Learning how to fight while tied up is very important. If some guy tries to mug you while your going to the bathroom at a rest stop, are you really going to prevent him from grabing you? Gonna have room to kick? Just some thoughts....

BTW, I give very little consideration to one stop hit's. Having kicked boxed in a ring and both knocking someone out and having been knocked out, in addition to stick fighting with very minimal gear(Dog Bros. stlye down a notch or two), it takes much more than you think to drop someone when they are full of adrenaline. Likewise, I think you would be amazed at what your body can take without realising it.

[Rocp15126]

Well, honestly having my opponent "roll" into the guard is something I would do on someone who wasn't a "experienced" grappler. (or a least if he didn't appear experienced.) My grappling education is pretty much limited to several months of ju-jutsu practice and a whole lot of just horsing around with people. I would say I know enough to handle someone unfamiliar with grappling, and maybe give an experience grappler a very very very light sweat before he ripped me up. (hopefully I'll keep him at bay before he gets me.) I tend to like to avoid grappling only for three reasons. 1) depending on the situation, its hard to take on multiple opponents while grappling. I have seen it done, but it's not something I think most people can do. 2) Grappling in the street or a backalley can get you torn up by gravel, glass, etc. Of course this could happen in a normal fist fight also. 3)I like to stay mobile, and be able to run if the opportunity presents itself. Although I prefer not to grapple, I do realize that I should learn how to.

VF-XX
quick question- do you wear ear protection when you grapple? There have been several times when I was grappling that my ears would get pulled or slammed. Man that hurts!

Mantis
thankfully I've never had to fight with anyone on drugs! I think that learn to grapple might help you out here. Then again you sound like you know when to pick your fights and when not to.

[vf-xx]

No I don't use ear guards. I used to use a mouthpiece, but with my allergies acting up I can't breath well with it in. So i'm not really wearing any safety gear at the moment. Then agian i'm only training, i'm not doing any tournaments or anything like that.

The other nice thing about grappling is that once you close the distance strikes become useless. Your opponent can't get enough room to swing to be able to do any serious damage. I know I've tried.

Groundsparring is useful for ending fights cause no matter what your on when you loose bloodflow to the brain you pass out. Period.

As for multiperson fighting, I'm still not sure of it myself. Klay (my instructor) has told sories of him doing it sucsessfully, but I'm just not convinced yet.

Personally I've never been in a real fight. Nor do I ever plan on being in one. This is just for fun and exercise for me. That it has practical applications only makes it a better choice.

[JRSJKD]

Hey guys......I'm not saying grappling is the end all, be all. What I am saying is that just as guys have already done here, in posting many different situations, don't fall into one kind of thinking. What I mean by that is that no one art has all of the answers. They may have very good response under certain circumstances, but may be totally wrong under others. In real world situations a lot of times grappling isn't the best bet. What I have personally seen however is that people who are not trained in any form of fighting instinctually grab for you or want to wrestle. When I say grappling I'm also not necassarily talking about rolling(guard,top/side mounts, etc.). If your just training for fun ok, but if your training for self defense you REALLY MUST train in more than one style/art. From my friends who have taught at the F.B.I academy, statistically speaking, over 80% of all fights will end up on the ground. In addition to that another 70% of all assaults involved a weapon of some sort.

Personal advice, if you roll alot, check out some earguards, califlower ear doesn't go away after it hardens I dont wear one but, I always wear a mouth guard. Accidents happen and a good mouth guard is way cheaper than the dentist.

BTW, I had a friend knocked out while doing Vale Tudo type grappling. That's kickboxing all the way down to submission. They were both on the ground when he was hit. You CAN be hurt by punches on the ground. Broken ribs are also very easy to come by......

[MantisMag]

lol. so none of us has actually ever been in a fight. most of my "real fight" stories come from my sifu. he used to work as a bouncer. i forget what he said the guys were on but he told me horror stories of guys who would fight while their faces were all smashed in and they had broken ribs, hands, arms, legs. they'd still keep fighting cause they couldn't feel anything. and they'd fight almost as hard as if they weren't hurt at all although obviously with some loss of mobility. i'm not sure if choking would work on one of these guys cause how do you hold someone like that? if he doesn't care about not being able to breathe and doesn't care if he hyperextends some part of his arm or dislocates his shoulder then how are you supposed to control him? i think i would go for the legs. try to break something and then run away.

most of the techniques i talk about come from "what would you do if..." games with my friends. we'll try something and do it lightly. if it hurts when you do it light doing it hard to somebody will definitely make them reconsider whether fighting with you is a good idea. multiple person grappling i imagine would be the same as any other multiple person fighting. the key would be to keep moving. when you hit someone hit them hard and fast. then move on. try not to let too many of them get an angle on you at once. try to get them to interfere with each other. if you really think you're in danger do whatever you have to in order to disable them. break, hyperextend, dislocate, whatever it takes. i've been trained to do these things in a fight. that's one reason why i always avoid fighting. i don't want to send someone to the hospital. especially over some of the stupid things that people fight over.

[vf-xx]

actually our chokes aren't done to the windpipe (or aren't supposed to) we aim for the arteries right next to it. Knock some one out within seconds when locked in right. In this case its not a matter of pain, but a matter of lack of blood to the brain. I don't think that drugs can do much agianst that.

I beleive the drug he's talking about is PCP. I've heard stories about that too. Scary stuff.

[MantisMag]

yeah i think it takes something like 30 seconds. my point was how do you hold them there long enough for them to pass out? if he can't be controlled by twisting his arm or some other kind of hold how do you keep him in position long enough to knock him out?

[vf-xx]

I"ve heard that it takes much less than 30 sec. I don't know personally, but according to Klay it can take as little as 1 sec.

Holding people down is easier for me because it's hard to move 285 lbs that's sitting on your chest. not impossible, but hard.

[MantisMag]

oh yeah. that's not the same thing though. somebody told me about that point. there's a spot on your neck, some sort of gland or something. if you put a few pounds of pressure on it with something like a finger jab the person will pass out. some sort of defense mechanism. it's a small spot though. you've gotta jab it with two fingers. it's different from trying to pinch the blood vessels. i had forgotten about that move because i didn't plan on ever using it. anyway. yeah it is possible to knock them out that way but doing it through blood starvation takes something like 30 seconds. long enough for your brain to use up whatever oxygen it already has and then get denied fresh blood.

[vf-xx]

no, I"m talking about blood starvation, not pressure points.

I don't see it taking as long as 30 sec. I've had stuff locked in pretty well on me and I start to black out pretty quick. Sit down and time 30 sec sommetime. It's a lot longer than you'd think. I"m pretty sure that you can do it in less than that.

[MantisMag]

well i don't have much experience with it but i'm just trying to figure it out based on what is physically happening. simply cutting off blood flow wouldn't knock someone out that fast. i'm thinking maybe if you were moving around and got your heart rate up. and then close off the veins but leave the arteries open (not that hard to do since veins are closer to the surface). then pressure would build up in your skull pretty fast and make you dizzy and pass out. probably within 10 secs you would feel dizzy. coin toss on whether or not you pass out. depending on how fast your heart is beating at the time. also if you're thinking real hard your brain will use up more oxygen.