This Gen's Jane Fonda

[Rooster]

"i may not be a congressman, but this is MY country, and this is YOUR country. i have a hell of a say on what they wanna do, IM the presidents boss, YOUR the presidents boss."

Not quite, America isn't a pure democracy. We elect people to be our boss, not the other way around. Sure we have freedom of speech, so you can say, I don't think the US belongs in Iraq. I think you are wrong, but thats your right to say. However to say "We don't belong in Iraq" is completely different. You were not elected to make that call. You don't have enough knowledge or experience to make that call. There is a reason you arn't making government policy where you could make statements like "We don't belong in Iraq".

[halB]

im not making government policy? wrong bub, i rub elbows with the mayor down here, and it may jsut be some piss ant town, but i can still influence things. besides, its not a democracy, why the hell do people keep on saying that? its a republic, we are a republic people. democracies dont work cause they only work with small homogenous groups. also, im not a senator, but how the hell do you think he makes his decisions? he listens to his constituents, and im telling him and anyone whose listening that we dont belong in iraq.


heres a little riddle to wrap your noggin around.

isnt it odd that the country with the largest stockpile of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, which is incredibly belligerent to all the countries of the world and overthrows governments bout once every 15 years, and still continues to threaten the safety of many other countries openly, still doesnt give any account of its weapons or allow inspectors into its country?

[nippinout]

Why would anybody want to bring inspectors here?

This is a first world country with a system of checks and balances.

The entire reason of stockpiling all of these weapons are not for the sole purpose of having weapons ready.

These stockpiles are tools which act as deterrents. Why does any country have nuclear weapons? The other kid on the block has one, pride, and show of might.

The goverment cannot just release our stockpiles and readiness, it would endanger the country. Analogously, there is a reason why the B2 maximum ceiling is classified. We must protect ourselves.

Do you really think any team of foreign inspectors would be allowed into NORAD? Russia and the US do know the other countries stockpiles. It lets eachother know that we can decimate the other country in a counter-attack a dozen times over before the first ICBM even hits us.

The very thought of the US having to be inspected is ridiculous.

Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of first world countries is nothing to be feared. As long as you are a first world country. There are many a paper written by political scientists about how war isn't possible among first world countries. It isn't worth fighting, because there is nothing to gain - zero sum game.

What's so wrong about the US having large amounts of these weapons? How you stated that last 'riddle' isn't very fair. The US doesn't just threaten other countries. There is a reason to have a distaste for countries like Iraq and North Korea.

The UN is based upon diplomacy. It does have peacekeeping forces, but not a full military. Diplomacy does not always work. War is not simply the last option when diplomacy fails. War is merely diplomacy by other means. War IS diplomacy when all other means have been exhausted.

So does the US need to be in Iraq? We can go on and on about that. Does Saddam need to be removed from power? Hell yes, any other answer is not logical.

[1stdeadeye]

Wrong again!

Originally posted by halB


oh yes, and rooster, everyone ran on an anti iraq platform. the only senator who voted nay on the iraq powers bill became extremely popular, and was going to be reelected, but was killed in a plane crash

HalB,
WRONG AGAIN!
What land do you live in. Sen. Wellstone was a principled man. He was eulogized by his colleagues. No one with any class will speak ill of the dead. Before his death however, he was not extremely popular. He was running in a dead heat race with the new Senator from Minn. He may have won, but then again their race was a statistical dead heat. He was in a dead heat with the guy who lost the last govenors race to Jesse "The Bpdy" Ventura. Also, both he and the new Senator were polling with less then 50% of the vote.

Please if you are going to make your opinions known, do that. DO NOT MAKE UP FACTS!

[davidb]

Originally posted by halB
(cause wars are never as easy or quick as we make them)

I remember around 1990 or so everyone being afraid that Desert Storm was going to be a long, drawn out struggle, like Nam in the desert. It didn't take long before your ilk decided this wasn't even a war worth protesting. It was, needless to say, about as one-sided a war as we could have hoped for. They project high casualty counts for wars now because if they're right, can't say we weren't warned. If and when they're wrong, "that wasn't so bad after all".

Bush is a first-term president. He wants to be reelected. Do you really think he would get us into a war that hadn't been thought through? Clinton (who, I'm guessing, you're a big fan of) did exactly that in Somalia, and we learned lessons from it. It would be political suicide for Bush to get us into a war where we incurred high casualties, and that isn't what he's going to do.

You say "we don't belong in Iraq". What, exactly, makes you think you know better than our country's leaders and intelligence agencies? How do you know what we're not being told because they have to protect a source, or prevent a panic? It's easy for you to just sit back from your uninformed perspective and make judgement calls. Bush has to make informed policy decisions. I'm graduating high school this year, so I am every bit as much affected by this as you are. Don't try to hide cowardice behind feigned principle.

[Orange Crush]

Originally posted by halB
i may not be a congressman, but this is MY country, and this is YOUR country.

I hope you have served. If you haven't placed your signature on the dotted line and done your time out of love for you country and its lifestyle, then IMO you are just a guest here.

Originally posted by HalB
i have a hell of a say on what they wanna do, IM the presidents boss, YOUR the presidents boss.

Really?! You think you have THAT much say in our government?! We are a democracy but how much say do you really have Mr. "Presidents Boss". Why don't you call him up and tell him to put in 20 hrs of overtime next week.

Originally posted by HalB
also, considering IM gonna be the one thats gonna go out and die if they start a draft (cause wars are never as easy or quick as we make them) i sure as hell better give my 2 cents.

Sorry man, I am pretty sure that hundreds of thousands of active military, reserve component and national guard citizens will have already put in lots of time and blood by the time you get there for your country's call. Its a shame that your involvment is to save your own ***, and not the lives of those that are willing to put their lives on the line everyday for their country.

Originally posted by HalB
germany was taking over the world and attacking our long ally britain. even though the monroe doctrine said we should stay out of european affairs, the zimmerman telegraph sure as hell showed us that it was gonna be our problem soon, as hitler wished to team with mexico to take over america.

japan issued a declaration of war, and then attacked us first, before teh declaration reached us. the pearl harbor bombing was one of the worst attacks we suffered. of course, that japanese general was right when he said "I'm afraid we have awoken a sleeping giant"

And was South Vietnam our ally. We told NV, if you attack SV its the same as attacking the US, and they did. We promised SV we would help if they were attacked. Unless you don't have a personal code of honor, you can easily see why we were there. The sad part is that even if you disagree with the war, as many did, to treat the soldiers who answered their country's call like **** when they got home is completely disrespectful. Many of them didn't want to be there, but their duty as a citizen called, and all they wanted to do was survive to make it home.

Originally posted by HalB
iraq has not attacked us, and anyone whose studied saddam hussein can see hes not crazy, and he wouldnt attack us cause hes not suicidal.

Wow yeah, people that use chemical weapons on the citizens of their own country are perfectly sane and stable. And no, he probably wouldn't attack the US in a conventional war, because it would be ludicrous, so he attacks us indirectly by supporting and aiding known terrorists. Perhaps you forgot the attack on September 11th?

[tsc]

If you're angry with Penn for having a dissenting opinion, that's just silly. I do agree, however, that traveling to the 'enemy' country in order to express this opinion is tasteless.

I do *not* agree with comparing him to Jane Fonda. She delibrately aided and supported forces opposing the US, rather than just saying her piece.

*edit* Just as an add on. Any one person who has been in control of a heavily militant state for a prolonged period of time, has managed to police his people and/or army with very little error, and sucessfully be 'competative' with other countries is not stupid. They are, in fact, very intelligent. Crazy? Maybe. Not stupid. Hitler was an *amazing* leader, no one can dispute that. You may disagree with his politics, opinions, tactics, tie choice or what have you, but you can't say Saddam is stupid.

I have nothing against voicing your opinion,( for Pete's sake I do it more than I should! ) But it seems like members are getting hot under the collar because others are doing so..This is why political threads get closed, guys. Cool it down and be civil, this could turn out to be a fun debate.

[than205]

well said Sarah.

[oldsoldier]

That was my point exactly. And, I have stated it several times. It is not anyone speaking out against out beloved country, it is going into the hostile nation and doing so. I dont care about him visiting children's hospitals, or whatever. The fact that he spoke out against his country in the hostile country is what bugs me. And, Jane Fonda started out doing the same thing. It is not "noble" or "courageous" to voice your opinion against our country in a hostile country. Check the definitions of those words. AND he is aiding and abetting; he is providing MORAL comfort.
Now, I had only read, at the time of this thread, of what he did. Not where he went, or what he said. I still think he is a dirtbag, and a traitor. But hey, mine is only one voice.
I, for one, have taken an oath to defend the sanctity of this country. I, and my kin, will lay down our lives so people can continue to protest here. Keep that in mind.
And, Saddam has made alot of advances in the middle east. He pretty much invented modern healthcare over there; gave rights to women, improved the quality of life, among other things. Does this make him good? Crazy and insane are words best left out; he is definitely disillusioned now. Look what is now happening to Kuwait. He, like just last week, extended an olive branch to Kuwait. With the catch that they must fight against the US as well. They said no. Now, Iraq has threatened them again. He is not a good military leader; he just lacks trhe skill and diplomacy to achieve his goals; he instead reverts to brute force. Which, as hsitory points out, never works in the end.

[tsc]

Which, as hsitory points out, never works in the end.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The brute force destruction of those two cities ended the war. As far as I know, Japan and the US have lived in relative peace since then.

It doesn't even have to be such a cataclysmic show of power- The north defeated the south purely because of manpower. 20 million in the north versus some 9 million in the south. Along with The Emancipation Proclimation (slaves running to join nothern army, not working which reduces supplies for the army), brute force ended the war.

In a utopian world, brute force would be the last resort. I don't think anyone could say we live in a utopia, and it's silly to even hope that politics will win out. I'm sorry if I sound rather jaded, but I am. I lost faith in the goodwill of the human race a while ago.

[1stdeadeye]

Not so jaded yet.

Originally posted by Sarah


Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The brute force destruction of those two cities ended the war. As far as I know, Japan and the US have lived in relative peace since then.

In a utopian world, brute force would be the last resort. I don't think anyone could say we live in a utopia, and it's silly to even hope that politics will win out. I'm sorry if I sound rather jaded, but I am. I lost faith in the goodwill of the human race a while ago.

Sarah,
You are correct. While brute force can be nasty, it may serve the greater good. The two Atomic Bombs we dropped on Japan took over 100,000 lives, however they saved over 1,200,000 estimated casualties on both sides that would have come from an Allied invasion of the Japanese mainland.

However it is the holiday season. Little miracles are all around us. There are many evil people on this planet, but I firmly believe that there are many more good ones. Look at all the random acts of kindness we see every day in our lives. Don't give up!