Quick questions for those against war..

[FooTemps]

I just saw the gas prices... Shoot 2.00 freakin dollars! WAR! WE NEED IRAQI OIL CHEAP!!! NOWWWW!!!!

of course i'm not serious about that... BUT, it is another reason for war.

[FalconGuy016]

I think the world would be better off without saddam

[Collegeboy]

The world would be better without Mugbe, The Saudi Royal Family, without Sharron, without Arafat, without 100's of people.

Getting rid of Saddam will not stop anything. Once the US realizes that we will be able to get something down.

[Patron God of Pirates]

Being the right wing imperialist war hawk that I am, oil is a good enough reason for me. In fact I'm in favor of conquering the entire middle east.

Benevolent conquest is good. The majority of nations conquered by Rome were happy in the end. Rome brought a higher standard of living, better sanitation, the aqueduct, and even some limited religions freedom.

A US restructured middle east would bring peace, stability, and prosperity to the most violent region in world history. Don't believe me? Look at Japan, look at Germany.

Republican reform and basic human rights would be the best thing that ever happened to the women and children all you libs are so worried about. Ironically it is your method of appeasement, and the philosophy that the absence of war = peace, that leaves these people suffering at the hands of dictators and medieval religious practices.

-Patron

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
Being the right wing imperialist war hawk that I am, oil is a good enough reason for me. In fact I'm in favor of conquering the entire middle east.

While I might not totally agree...I actually found your post quite refreshing.


JDub

[Miscue]

Reminds me of Manifest Destiny and taking of Mexican territories. The rhetoric at the time was that the US, being superior, would be a great benefit to the Mexicans... justifying their conquering. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago supposedly protected Mexicans after the war had ended. But what really happened is... Mexicans all lost their land - because of a huge loophole... they were discriminated against... a lot of martial law and various atrocities took place... but our history books do not talk about these things - but rather romanticizes the whole ordeal... even so far as saying the Mexicans were ecstatic with the situation.

Although something like this wouldn't happen exactly... something along these lines is inevitable if we take Iraq.

An entirely different culture exists over there. They're not going to think, "Ooh gee! The US is here to save us! Look at all the good things they bring!" Sure, the good stuff we do will make US news... a lot of romanticism... and US people might think everything is justified... but all the bad stuff that the US brings, which will happen, won't be publicized much at all... we'll find out about the atrocities years later.

It's not all fun and games... the US won't all of a sudden turn a newly conquered country into some great new place to be...

I personally don't know if I can have an intelligent opinion on whether we should go to war. The thing is, I know full well that the military knows A LOT more than what they are telling us - which could be used to form a better opinion. And, what we know is selectively fed to us. Maybe the govt feels there are things we shouldn't know about... for "our sake."

The govt has already begun war propaganda on us... good example is when Powell mentions we should think about storing water and getting tape to seal doors and stuff. Well... tape won't do a damn thing. What about all the air vents? Fireplaces, dryer vents, etc... how about toxic crap permeating the walls? Unless you can make your house air-tight, you're wasting your time. We have a hard enough time keeping bugs out of our houses, let alone toxic gases and what not. If it gets to that point, you're screwed no matter what you do.

They just tell us these things to freak people out, and gain more support for war. If people think that they are at risk even in their own homes, of course they will support war... it is in their interests.

[Patron God of Pirates]

You're going awfully far back to be talking about the Mexican territories. Might as well reference the injustices suffered by native Americans or Hawaiians for that matter. Recent history tells a different story.

While I agree with you that it will be less than perfect and no "instant transformation" will take place, I still think the greater atrocity is to do nothing.

Anybody who does not believe that the end result will be better for Iraqi civilians is just wrong IMO.

[Collegeboy]

If we was for their for the rights of the Iraqi people would let them get rid of Saddam, and it can happen, and then establish there government.

With a war, the US will stick around for the election process and make sure they get a pro US government, which will be said to be Pro US (For it will be) the fundamentalist will drum up support behind them. And then overthrow the government the second US troops leave. (This will be a max of two years for Americans generally have short attention spans.). A fundamentalist government will be established and we will actually be worse off then now. For no matter what you think about Saddam, he has given his people the most freedoms of just about any Arab country, when you consider rights of woman and such. Before the Gulf War, Iraq had the largest literacy rates amongst all citizens including woman. For recent history look into Iran.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Patron God of Pirates
You're going awfully far back to be talking about the Mexican territories. Might as well reference the injustices suffered by native Americans or Hawaiians for that matter. Recent history tells a different story.

While I agree with you that it will be less than perfect and no "instant transformation" will take place, I still think the greater atrocity is to do nothing.

Anybody who does not believe that the end result will be better for Iraqi civilians is just wrong IMO.

Looks like you REALLY need to look at your history books again. Name me ONE empire that has lasted.

The conquered countries in the Roman empire were NOT happy. Weight, bureacracy, political infighting allowed the barbarian hoards to destroy them.

Ottoman, Byzntine, Egyptian, Huttite, Pheonecian, Roman, Spanish, Portugese, British, French, Russian. All failed empires. Every single one had declaired itself the best that there was of civilisation and the most deserving of world domination. Each and every one touted the merits of benevolent invasion and colonisation. Each and every one failed when all the 'happy' citizens finally had had enough or that they had become large and decadent enough that the outside 'barbarians' built the momentum to destroy them.

Now the US is the most powerful nation on the planet and throwing it's weight around. History is repeating itself.

The only reason Saddam is the current whipping boy is that he stopped following orders. He was as much a madman and butcher when the US was pumping billions in aid into Iraq. But then when the US ambassador 'misspoke' and told him that the US would do 'very little' if he invaded Kuwait and he refused to do as he was told and get out afterwards all of a sudden he's a madman and the propaganda starts flying.

For a democratic nation that prides itself on democracy, freedom, and presumption of innocence before proven guilty the US certainly doesn't seem to defend those ideals in the world at large. As long as a mad, butchering, evil dictator will do as he's told and protect US interests he'll get billions in aid. China, North Korea, various African nations, the Saudi Royal Family, others in the mideast, corrupt regimes in central america. All are currently supported by aid or favoured trading status. Yet many of the things they do within their borders are as bad or worse than what Saddam does. Saddam, like Noreaga and others before him, is just the latest to fall out of favour.

If I was an American citizen I would be far more concerned with what was going on within my own borders. But a forgein war and the associated propaganda is great to turn attention elsewhere while the fox empties the hen house.

The US was going to have a budget surplus of 1.6 trillion over the next ten years. Now it's going to be a deficit of hundred of billions. The great tax cuts of 1000$ on average per familiy are actually 100$ to 99% of the population and 90,000$ to those earning a million or more per year.

All this to say, the reason those against war are unlikely to give acceptable answers to those that support it is that those that support war are looking for easy black and white answers. The world and the issues is a murky shade of grey.

PS: One HUGE difference between Germany and Japan and any current scenario. THEY attacked first.

[SlartyBartFast]

Another thing to mull over:

If democracy and freedom is so important, why it the US plan for Iraq (a country with oil) includes a military government to oversee a 'transition' but in Afganistan the locals have been left with a mess because the US is not in the business of 'Nation Building'?

And what's the plan to spread democracy and freedom to all the other places in teh worlds that human rights abuses are perpetrated?

[Smoke]

While off the Iraq topic, I read in the news that Japan is probably going to pre-empitvley (sp?) strike N. Korea. Fun.

[Restola]

This may answer your question irbodden.

The following link is a great video that was shown of Fox News. A reporter goes to a peace rally and asks honest questions about what these people believe.

Many prove they don't know what to do, other than push a liberal-whacko anti-Bush and anti-American message.

(my favorite part 03:10 - 04:12)

18.1 MB - requires Quicktime

(I recommend rightclicking and "Save-Target as..")
http://homepage.mac.com/evancm/brain...-peace_web.mov

[aaron_mag]

Very intelligent posts from SlartyBartFast and Miscue and they hit the nail right on the head.

As Americans the first thing we need to do is get off our high horses and start looking at ourselves with realistic eyes. Do we have alot to be proud of in the US? YES! Of course we do but we are not the source of all that is good in the world with the destiny to combat all that is evil in the world. We are made up of human beings who are much like human beings all over the world. As mentioned by the honorable Canadian we need to pay some attention to our own economy and question some of these questionable accounting practices that were going on.

We do have foriegn interests like any other nation. It is not wrong to protect those interests and while we do harm in some areas we also do alot of good. One of the main things we need to do, however, is fulfill the obligations that we agreed to in Afganistan.

Now is Saddam a threat? As others have mentioned his army was decimated in the last Gulf war and I think that he is more concerned with holding onto power than any more aggression. For everyone who keeps talking about "waiting until he becomes a threat". I'd like to point out that we cannot attack every country that "might be a threat at some point in the future". Is the United States going to become a country that jumps at every shadow?

North Korea is a difficult scenario. We need to negotiate with them and bring China into the mix. A preemptive military strike is not a good thing as the retaliation would probably be against S Korea and Japan.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
For no matter what you think about Saddam, he has given his people the most freedoms of just about any Arab country

You would be a great Iraqi citizen Collegeboy. You wont get your tongue cut off, and your family wont be raped and tortured in front of you.

If thats the kind of freedom you support (if nothing else you are praising it), then I have no idea how to respond to anything else you have said or will say.

Originally posted by aaron_mag
As mentioned by the honorable Canadian we need to pay some attention to our own economy and question some of these questionable accounting practices that were going on.

So you think that since the only thing CNN is covering is the comming war, that the justice department, congress, and every person working for the government will redirect 100% of their attention to the war?

Even if you cant keep track of it all, 2 million people work for the government. I'm sure we can keep working on our problems while continuing to protect our intrests abroad.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
If democracy and freedom is so important, why it the US plan for Iraq (a country with oil) includes a military government to oversee a 'transition' but in Afganistan the locals have been left with a mess because the US is not in the business of 'Nation Building'?

And what's the plan to spread democracy and freedom to all the other places in teh worlds that human rights abuses are perpetrated?

So you dont support freeing a people...but if you do, why aren't we doing it EVERYWHERE RIGHT NOW WITHOUT ANY DELAY..?

And if you think OIL is the reason we are going to war, please do a TINY bit of research. The French and Russians have MASSIVE oil interest. If we wanted Iraq's oil all for ourselves, we would have simply kept it in '91.

[Restola]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
The great tax cuts of 1000$ on average per familiy are actually 100$ to 99% of the population and 90,000$ to those earning a million or more per year.

How do you give a $90,000 tax cut to a family earning $55,000/year? Im sure the economic power-house that is Canada found a way, right?