Very Interesting

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

This is my last responce.

Noone is refusing to do anything. Noone is saying lets let terrorist be. But instead I am saying lets do something that will get rid of terrorist, not create new ones.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But instead I am saying lets do something that will get rid of terrorist, not create new ones.

This is becoming a very common falacy that is repeated over and over. First of all there is a group of people who teach their kids to hate you already. Nothing you can do about that. Nothing we can do will change that. It will not increase and in a few cases it may decrease from our actions. If you think acting scared and not backing up your talk with actions will decrease it you do not understand their goal. Their goal is to kill you and your children because they think they are ment to take over the world and you are scum. And the more of them you kill the more of them have gone to heaven trying to kill you. No win situation! Either way!!!! They want you dead and you just want them to like you! But NOOOOO! they not gonna. they will come over here and go to your schools and make money off your prosperity and eat your food and when they get a chance they will slit your throat! In the name of religeon! Misguided and missplaced anger. You cannot comprehend that at all can you?

[cphilip]

Switching gears here for a mintute Heather so bear with me!

Let me show you something a guy wrote over in another forum I go to and its his responce to the question of why we would give Saddam 72 hours notice before the attack. I thought it interesting. Comments? Keep em clean and civil like we have been so far.

It's also a superb psychological weapon. Imagine if you were an Iraqi and a veteran of the 91 war. You experienced constant bombing. You saw things disappear before your eyes. There were hits on your tanks and you had no idea where the bomb or missile came from - all you saw were contrails high up in the sky. Your weapons were useless. All of you were thirsty and hungry. When you surrendered to US Forces you were treated reasonably well. You got all the water you could drink and you fed. And you were safe. Now you tell all that to the new soldiers around you right after you were told it's all going to start again in 72 hours. What are your options? This could result in much less conflict. The regular Iraqi units, I predict, will quit without a shot fired - or very few shots fired - maybe the younger ones will need to see for themselves a US missile hit a tank from miles away and watch the tank disintegrate. Or maybe they will need to see an Iraqi T-72 tank engage an American M1 tank at close range - and then the same American tank that was hit kill the tank that fired at it. Maybe some of those young ones will have to experience that total feeling of impotence before they give up. So then the Republican Guard - they'll stand and fight. And our forces will decimate them in probably what will be some of the most intense tank warfare ever seen - and the same thing will happen - M1's taking direct hits but as the dust settles the M1s start engaging. Maybe the M1s won't wait that long. They can engage and kill an enemy tank at ranges out to three miles while on the move at speeds upward toward 35-40 miles per hour - cross country - Iraqi tanks are limited to ranges of 1200-1500 meters on the move at speeds of 20 miles per hour - slightly further if they stop and fire.

Yep - think it is an excellent ploy to tell them when we are coming.

[1stdeadeye]

Easy

Originally posted by Collegeboy


And how has this problem been dealt with in the 1000's of years?

(I know this isn't with the topic but it can't be left alone)

You either wipe them out or pound them into submission. Once they are utterly destroyed and defeated, you rebuild them. Worked like a charm in Europe and Japan!

[cphilip]

[bofh]

Originally posted by cphilip 1) Saddam still has the power to stop this war, by coming clean and destroying his Weapons of Mass Destruction like he agreed to do. Let me repeat, HE CAN STOP THE WAR.

Agreed

Originally posted by cphilip 2) We are the most humane country in the world. No one gives more aid and assistance. No one comes to the rescue more often. No one goes out of their way more to fight a humane as possible war even when we are drug into it. NO ONE!

Agreed

Originally posted by cphilip

Disagree, The USA has occupied countries for own benefit. one could agree (with stronger footing than people use here) That the USA has conquered several of the Native American Nations and then used the land afterward for our own benefit. Also Hawaii was conquered in 1893. Puerto Rico and Cuba were captured in 1898.

Originally posted by cphilip

Disagree, marginally. Cuba did not benefit a lot from us. A lot of places that we have fully occupied we've tried to leave alone afterward, and have them build themselves up. It almost has never worked. ie. Most of Central America.

But that also depends how you define "Conquer" I'd go with the loose idea of total occupation and setting up a goverment. We've setup an awful lot of failed puppet goverments, sadly.

[Collegeboy]

I know I said my last post. But I will pull that back since new arguments have been posted and the other side needs a voice.

First to Cphillip. What makes these people fall for the terrorist mantra? What makes these people kill themselves? etc.... Answer that and we can stop terrorism.

If dropping bombs and violence can solve terrorism then it would have been stopped a 1000 years ago.

Terrorism thrives on strife, on hunger, on so much, yet we choose to "end" it through causing more hunger, more strife, more trouble.

Doesn't make since to me.

So deadeye, we are going to kill everyone in the middle east, everyone in Europe, everyone, in Asia, everyone in Africa, and how while we are at everyone in the world. That is the only way violence will ever stop terrorism.

By applying past wars to this problem shows ignorance to the subject (Again not a diss just a term for lack of knowledge). Terrorism is one guy like the US is trying to make it out to be, it isn't one country, like the US is trying to make it, it isn't even one region, which many are trying to make it. It is an ideal, it is a reaction to strife, it is a condition of the mind. It is an unknown enemy without clear definitions. We can't point to a map and say those people are terrorist. I could be a terrorist, you could be a terrorist, anyone can be a terrorist.

Do you put out a flame be throwing more fire on it? No you take away one of those three important eliminates of the fire triangle.

And back to Cphillip.

Saddam can't stop this war, Bush will find any reason to go to war. Why because he has too, he will not be elected if he doesn't. Bush has the power to stop the war, Saddam doesn't.

Disagree to the rest.

[The Frymarker]

It's also a superb psychological weapon. Imagine if you were an Iraqi and a veteran of the 91 war. You experienced constant bombing. You saw things disappear before your eyes. There were hits on your tanks and you had no idea where the bomb or missile came from - all you saw were contrails high up in the sky. Your weapons were useless. All of you were thirsty and hungry. When you surrendered to US Forces you were treated reasonably well. You got all the water you could drink and you fed. And you were safe. Now you tell all that to the new soldiers around you right after you were told it's all going to start again in 72 hours. What are your options? This could result in much less conflict. The regular Iraqi units, I predict, will quit without a shot fired - or very few shots fired - maybe the younger ones will need to see for themselves a US missile hit a tank from miles away and watch the tank disintegrate. Or maybe they will need to see an Iraqi T-72 tank engage an American M1 tank at close range - and then the same American tank that was hit kill the tank that fired at it. Maybe some of those young ones will have to experience that total feeling of impotence before they give up. So then the Republican Guard - they'll stand and fight. And our forces will decimate them in probably what will be some of the most intense tank warfare ever seen - and the same thing will happen - M1's taking direct hits but as the dust settles the M1s start engaging. Maybe the M1s won't wait that long. They can engage and kill an enemy tank at ranges out to three miles while on the move at speeds upward toward 35-40 miles per hour - cross country - Iraqi tanks are limited to ranges of 1200-1500 meters on the move at speeds of 20 miles per hour - slightly further if they stop and fire.

Yep - think it is an excellent ploy to tell them when we are coming.

It's okay to switch gears, I wanted to discuss the subject on a broad spectrum, candidly.

Well according the Military.com article, they may just bomb centrally their military targets. With this being said how can they have the morality and the means to fight back?

As for the terrorism issue, at this point I think we are just trying to find retribution for what happened September 11.
I think politically the US is aware that terrorism will never be stopped. It has been happening for so many years, it is a disease that just spreads when you chop of it's ugly head another will popp up.

For instance the suicide bombers, they have their own trading cards that the children of those countries trade back and forth and aspire to be. The bombers themselves are under some clouded notion that they "will be rewarded" in the afterlife...now that is another whole subject that I won't get into.

So really it is a falicy for anyone to think that terrorism will be stopped it won't.

It just happened in our backyard, and that is what woke us up. This has been happening in almost every country and they haven't been stopped yet.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I know I said my last post. But I will pull that back since new arguments have been posted and the other side needs a voice.

First to Cphillip. What makes these people fall for the terrorist mantra? What makes these people kill themselves? etc.... Answer that and we can stop terrorism.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
If dropping bombs and violence can solve terrorism then it would have been stopped a 1000 years ago.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Terrorism thrives on strife, on hunger, on so much, yet we choose to "end" it through causing more hunger, more strife, more trouble.

Doesn't make since to me.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
So deadeye, we are going to kill everyone in the middle east, everyone in Europe, everyone, in Asia, everyone in Africa, and how while we are at everyone in the world. That is the only way violence will ever stop terrorism.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
By applying past wars to this problem shows ignorance to the subject (Again not a diss just a term for lack of knowledge). Terrorism is one guy like the US is trying to make it out to be, it isn't one country, like the US is trying to make it, it isn't even one region, which many are trying to make it. It is an ideal, it is a reaction to strife, it is a condition of the mind. It is an unknown enemy without clear definitions. We can't point to a map and say those people are terrorist. I could be a terrorist, you could be a terrorist, anyone can be a terrorist.

And to ignore HISTORY is to be ignorant as well.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Do you put out a flame be throwing more fire on it? No you take away one of those three important eliminates of the fire triangle.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
And back to Cphillip.

Saddam can't stop this war, Bush will find any reason to go to war. Why because he has too, he will not be elected if he doesn't. Bush has the power to stop the war, Saddam doesn't.

Disagree to the rest.

[The Frymarker]

I agree. This has been a sleeping problem for many years. Clinton was more worried regarding who and what country wasn't going to like him rather than dealing with the issues at hand. He brushed them under the table, now that Bush is in office he looks like the war munger for dealing with what should have been delt with years ago.

I just love the bleeding heart "Hollywoodites" that say that Bush is horrible, war is horrible. Wake up and come off your powderpuff. Who are they to express that Bush is a war munger, this is your Country, your President, have some respect. Most of them would never raise a finger to save this country and there so called little Beverly Hills world...unless a bomb hit it.

Ahem Sylvester Stallone, Mohammed Ali draft dodgers.

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy

I know I said my last post. But I will pull that back since new arguments have been posted and the other side needs a voice.

First to Cphillip. What makes these people fall for the terrorist mantra? What makes these people kill themselves? etc.... Answer that and we can stop terrorism.

I agree its the destitute looking for someone to blame for thier despair. And its often the leaders of those destitute that have it all (like palaces and servants and wealth) who prefer to point the finger at us so that thier people will not turn towords them and look for the blame. its in thier interest to find a scapegoat.

If dropping bombs and violence can solve terrorism then it would have been stopped a 1000 years ago.

It indeed has stopped maniac many times before. And doing nothing as we have been for so many years is not working now is it?

Terrorism thrives on strife, on hunger, on so much, yet we choose to "end" it through causing more hunger, more strife, more trouble.

Who said our aim is to cause hunger and strife? Our aim is to protect ourselves and then to end that for those people. I am fully commited to doing that as are most of the American people. Even you are! That is one thing we can agree on. Now that being said it was indeed Saddams aim to cause hunger and strife just so he could blame it on us! All the while spending money on building more weapons that he said he didn't have! Why didn't he spend it on his people? You realy must ask yourself why then he did not

Doesn't make since to me.

Doesn't to me either!

By applying past wars to this problem shows ignorance to the subject (Again not a diss just a term for lack of knowledge). Terrorism is one guy like the US is trying to make it out to be, it isn't one country, like the US is trying to make it, it isn't even one region, which many are trying to make it.

The US is not trying to make anything like that out at all! We are going after it one step at a time. I for the life if me do not know where you get that idea. We have people working all over the world after these groups. We are at war this very minute!

It is an ideal, it is a reaction to strife, it is a condition of the mind. It is an unknown enemy without clear definitions. We can't point to a map and say those people are terrorist. I could be a terrorist, you could be a terrorist, anyone can be a terrorist.

and if your terrorist ideal involves killing inoccent people and wipeing them off the face of the earth and I know that and I am your target I am now convinced you would kill me and I am going to do my best to kill you first. Plain and simple. You started it not me!

Do you put out a flame be throwing more fire on it? No you take away one of those three important eliminates of the fire triangle.

Sometimes you do. When someone starts a fire you do not want to burn your way you start a backfire. And you try and get your back fire to burn up all the fuel that thiers would have consumed.

And back to Cphillip.

Saddam can't stop this war, Bush will find any reason to go to war. Why because he has too, he will not be elected if he doesn't. Bush has the power to stop the war, Saddam doesn't.

He indeed does have the power and always has... Your wrong about that and its obvious your wrong. Even the UN is unanimous that he has done nothing about it for years and should have. And they only can say now "well he seems to be starting too..." It could all be wrapped up in one day if he just lays the stuff out there and says come get it. He choses not too and so he pays the price. Its on his head. Now ours. Its my understaning he will be given one final ultimatum. If he choses to ignore it he is done. And when you see what they have you will be astonished I am certain of that. I know in my heart that American are a good people and will do the right thing. I have no idea where this sudden trust and defense of an admitted monster like Saddam comes from. Its unearned and unfair to all your fellow Americans to support him in his efforts. However I do sympathise with you because I know you are realy doing out of compassion for other human beings. And those are exactly the same reasons I feel its time to deal with that problem and then move onto the next. Odd isn't it?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
So really it is a falicy for anyone to think that terrorism will be stopped it won't.

Well... what are the alternatives to at least trying? You gotta at least try.

[cphilip]

The thing I think about is our kids and when its obvious a problem is building and we are doing nothing about it I worry that we are missing our obligation to them. I have a kid that will be old enough to get swept up in this in a year or two. You all have kids that will in the future. If we can limit it and control it and diminish it we must try and do that fo them. And sitting around fat dumb and happy playing paintball sure hasn't been doing anything to curb it. So what are the alternatives? We already provide more Aid and support and food than any 20 countries on earth put together. And now countries have grown dependent on that and expect it or they want to kill us if we do not give it to them! And disrespect us for being so stupid all the while eating our food! And yet all of us are worried about them and not wanting to kill any more of them than we can. I am truely amazed at us as Americans. Quit beating yourselves up over this. You are good people and you are doing the right thing by trying to make the world a better place. Sometimes that is dirty and bloody. I wish it were not. But it is.

[The Frymarker]

Yes trying is one thing, but as was mentioned before it is a human condition. We can't stop hated, we can't stop robberies, we can't stop rapes, we can't stop killing, I could go on and on. There are two sides to every coin, really you can't have one without the other.

Utopia doesn't exist. I do agree we need to show them that we are a country though that is not going to lie down, we never have and probably never will.

On a different subtopic of this issue.

In Maine a teacher of elementary grade students stated just after Maine troops have been deployed, Bush and all of his supporters even the Military are all rediculous for supporting this war. The teacher stated this in a different speech than I retorted.

Is this teacher a complete moron for saying this to small children who's parents just left? This person should be fired.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by The Frymarker
I do agree we need to show them that we are a country though that is not going to lie down, we never have and probably never will.

If that stops even one then it's worth it. And who knows maybe in the long run we can win a few over with kindness. But until we can meet with them face to face and they can get thier information freely thats not possible. Maybe they will then start to question what they are taught about us and think to themselves that something is wrong with this hate. It may and probably will take generations of time but heck I am an optomist!