IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[aaron_mag]

Getting way off topic here but I'm willing to bet you that American Indian teenagers thought they new everything as well.

I saw an Indian movie recently (from India) that had an Indian family. The teenagers there were acting just like over here. Arguing with their parents. Telling them that they if they didn't like them "talking to them that way then they just wouldn't talk to them at all!" People are people! Well except those Aussies since they are descendents from convicts (just kidding...) Time to go to bed! Wasted enough time here arguing with crazy college kids/aussies/war mongering republicans. Can't help it though. My wife just rolls her eyes when I try to debate with her. Those women might be wiser than us after all!!!

[Lone Brain Cell]

LOL........the mongrel is way better than the so called purebred

[nippinout]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Higher education is a necessary part of our society. Nippinout! Go out and enjoy some counter culture. I want to see you posting about your new found vegetarian lifestyle!

ARG!!! Don't get me started on the hypocrisy that is veganism.

I love meat. More specifically, I love bacon.

I don't need more counter culture, I get enough of it just walking around campus.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
It is funny Facts, no one has proven me wrong yet. Not you here or on that other site, and not anyone. Please show me where I have been proven wrong. Again you seem so good at making statements but shy away when I ask for proof.

Every post you make. Tell me again how Israeli kids are open game. So far that's my favorite....

[shartley]

Re: Re: Collegeboy

Originally posted by Collegeboy
We in the US can sit back in our leather desk chairs, drinking our coke, and eating a big fat steak and be like it is their problem. We are fine, they are bad. They bring it on themselves, they are naturally evil. But once you get out of that comfort zone you get to see how stupid that is.

You try being force to live like they do, you try being forced to grow up where you are constantly being prejudice against and see how you come out of it. All they want is a better life, all they want is the right to have a state of their own as was promised to them. SELF DETERMINATION.

[shartley]

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: Re: Collegeboy

Originally posted by shartley

Amen Sam, Amen! Argue this point CB!

Your earlier post to me about what would I do? I would fight for my freedoms, but not as a murderer of women and children. Also, please tell me that you were not comparing refugee camps to concentration camps. That would be an insult to any survivors of the holocost. This current uprising has taken about the same number of lives between both sides as 9/11 did in 20 minutes.

It is all well and good to question authority, but do it for a purpose beyond "just because". Propose solutions, don't just attack them.

As for the college argument, I don't think anyone was for closing down higher education. I think that since CollegeBoy already knows everything, he is just wasting his parents money at U of Alabama. Quick CB, jump into the job market while you still are omnipetant!

Their are extremely wealthy Arab countries surrounding this conflict. They could very easily alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people. Saudia Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, and even Iraq can send much more aid then they do, yet they don't. Why is that? Why is it the resposibility of the US to alleviate the Palestinians suffering. Surely their close arabian cousins could do it just as easy. Most in the Middle East want this resolved so that they can throw the Palestinians out of their country (Jordan). Tells you something about the Palestinians as a whole doesn't it. If their "family" won't help, why does it all fall on the world's social worker, the US?

[Collegeboy]

I am saying how to end (Or bring it to a manageable level) terrorism. I have been arguing that from that beginning.

I HAVE NEVER TRIED TO JUSTIFY TERRORISM, I HAVE SAID THAT IS WHAT MAKES A TERRORIST, NEVER DID I SAY THAT IT IS OK FOR WHAT THEY DID. Get it, good. (In caps so people will understand this which I have said already many times)

LBC
So you don't think ending terrorism (Or same as above) is an important fight.

FOL

Tell me where I said Israeli kids are open for game. I said technically Israeli men between the ages of 18 and I think 30 are open game since they are in the military.

But let me ask you this. Why are Palestinian kids open game?

Shartley

I never said you should feel sorry for where you live or what you have. I said that Americans are lucky to have what we have, and that what we have blocks us from truly understanding what people in other countries have.

It sounds like you and I come from similar back grounds Shartly. Both poor kids, never had anything, didn't eat good, and such. But I am surprised that with that back ground you think like you do. I can look back to mine and see that as a kid me and my friends could have easily been lead astray. I went to school in clothes from the Salvation army. If my clothes didn't have a hole in them I was happy. I saw people go to school brand new cloths, heir parents drop them off in BMW's, and all the while my dad just had to fix the station wagon for me to get to school. I can look back and see how angry I was that these kids got all of this, and I got nothing. I was desperately trying to find answers why. If someone would have came up to me and said this and that was because of this country. I probably could have believed it. From then on I would have that idea in the back of my head and anything I don't like I would blame in on such and such country. See where I am getting at. This is what I fell causes terrorism, and what needs to be dealt with the try and end terrorism.

I have never discarded any sides points. I taken them in, think about it, and then most of the time I figure them wanting of more proof. If you would post something that proves me wrong, i will change my opinion. But up to this point it hasn't happened on this site.

1stdeadeye

Who is wasting their parents money. I wish my parents was paying for college.

I have never said I know everything. In fact I have said this about 10 times know, I KNOW I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING.

You last paragraph shows a lack of understanding of the situation in Palestine. Do you think the Israeli government will allow that to happen?

I call them concentration camps for that is what those Palestinian girls call them.

[shartley]

[RamboPreacher]

I have been trying to stay out of these (it's all over the forums I lurk and participate in), since I am not personaly privy to information that I know (and pray) that our lead government officials have. I am an armchair quarterback in this and that's why I take care when voting. Granted, I usually just hit the big "R" button first, but then I will ALWAYS go back and make changes from there.

Anyway... I pray for our president, and the leaders that we (for the most part) voted into their position. I pray for my fellow comrads in arms as well. Though it would probably take a pretty large scale effort to get me on the line because of my age, I wouldn't hesitate going. I recall the "desert shield" situation and though I was over 30, I sent letters and emails to volunteer as I could because of my particular desert warfare training and expertise when I was stationed in the Death Valley area.

So, there it is. My opinion. I consider myself an observer and a virtual participant. I know I don't have all the information, and no matter what anyone else here says - they don't have it either. not only do we NOT have all the information, but what we do have is scewed by it's presentation in the media and other "sources".

How in the world do we think we can "second-guess" our president and his coleagues. If I had all the information they have, then I could possibley form a valid opinion and be able to say that I may or may not have a better plan; otherwise, I am praying for them to make the right choices as necessary. Remember that as individuals, we have different theocratic ordinances than governing bodies.

[ShooterJM]

Well I held out for a few more pages.

Find one instance that Israel has specifically attacked Palestinian school buses please. Also I suggest you read up on standard offensive actions and retaliatory strikes by Isael. When you're done with that move to the '49 Jordanian occupation, their expulsion and the resulting application of the International Law of Justice. Then make sure you read all of the UN resolutions that "require" Israel to end their occupation.

As for terrorism I suggest you read the history of Arab Vs Israli terrorism. Focus specifically on data previous the the occupation, during each "turn the other cheek phase" by Israel, and then after each escalated retaliation.

Then if you have time read up on counter terrorism solutions. Focus on placate vs escalated retaliation.

People keep thinking you're brainwashed because you provide conjecture and are similar to an old college buddy who truly believed if he thought hard enough he could make walls dissappear. Pretty frustrating, but also kinda funny to watch.

If you freely admit you don't know anything, is this a quest for understanding then, or an end routine?

You call refugee camps concentration camps because that's what Palestinian girls call them? That's a pretty big coincidence! I call guys "Cootie givers" because that's what the neighbours daughter calls the boys in the neighbourhood. I also usually refer to ricky martin as dreamy.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
1stdeadeye

Who is wasting their parents money. I wish my parents was paying for college.

I have never said I know everything. In fact I have said this about 10 times know, I KNOW I DON"T KNOW ANYTHING. BUT I REALLY DO KNOW EVERYTHING!

You last paragraph shows a lack of understanding of the situation in Palestine. Do you think the Israeli government will allow that to happen?

I call them concentration camps for that is what those Palestinian girls call them.

First off denotes a joke. Get it!

And you seem quite one sided on this argument. Do the Palestinians have legitamite gripes? Of course they do. The Palestinians as a whole are not very popular in the Arab world. That being said, most Arabs would pick them over the Israelis. The Israeli government has allowed humanitarian aid. It is a question of if the money evry gets to where it is needed. The Palistinian Authority is very corrupt. They are almost as bad as the government of Camden, NJ. Neither knows where their money goes!

I have known quite a few people who have lived in the middle east. ON BOTH SIDES!! Do you know anybody on the Israeli side? BTW the Israelis have killed Palestinian Women and Children, but they were never targeted. Can the Palestinians say the same? No!

For your last line, now who is spouting off propaganda? To compare refugee camps to concentration camps is wrong. If they are concentration camps, who runs these "concentration" camps inside Jordan? Let me give you a hint, it is not the Israelis. Also, who governs the refugee camps in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank? The Palestinians! Please never compare the Holocost to this "Intifada". That upsets me! I have met survivors, have you? Oh by the way, where were these Palestinian girls you know tatooed? You know, their identification numbers! That is what I thought!

[MarkM]

Originally posted by Lone Brain Cell
[B]Money & backscratching is all going on behind the scenes & most of you all cant see the wood for the trees!

A WAR ON TERRORISM.
When Bush said there would be a war on Terrorism, Major stuck up his hand to be first in line. the money trail for terrorists was targeted. Look at the biggest load of Irish in the world outside of Ireland????? you will find them in the States. that is where the IRA's money came from. Bush put a stop to that!! the IRA now talks for peace.

Ok not 100% sure what your motives were in posting what you did, however if you are going to quote instances do it accurately.

The IRA were already talking peace prior to Bush's announcement, they were talking peace before Clinton made his visit to Northern Ireland and poked his nose into another countrys political issues(that was when John Major was in power in the UK btw) the result of Bush's announcement of the "War on terror" then forced the States to get its own house in order as the major funding of the IRA was coming from the States so to continue that stance would have been hypocritical to say the least. Not really having too much of a go at you but please if you are going to cite instances of political inconsistancy do it accurately.

With regards the rest of this thread we could all go around in circles giving reasons for and against the coming war, because thats what it is, The COMING War. It WILL happen regardless of the UN, who for a long time have been an ineffectual police force. The destruction of property and loss of life in this modern age is nothing to the vague war strategies of the resonably recent past. Thankfully for both sides the conflict will be a short lived affair. Wether or not mass surrender occurs OR mass devastation of Iraq, the soldiers will do their job as they signed up for and then the politicans will shout and scream after the event about the rights or wrongs of those actions.

[cphilip]

One note and some food for thought here is that there is ample evidence that some of the UN opposition is based on economics. We brought this up before. Some of these countries heavily invested post 1991 Gulf War Iraq but the other side of the coin is the cost of this War and what they would be expected to pay if they participated. And after having paid for the last one they may indeed find it cheaper and easier to sit this one out and wait for the spoils. There is every indication that that is the case. For example if you do not get UN support they would not be obligated and then can come in after and particpate in the reconstruction and reap the benefits of those investments.

So if you were a France or a Germany or even a Russia and you faced the prospect of losing you investment with a US lead invasion you would be best served to not approve it and then you could offset your loses by post war reconstruction contracts. Paid off by oil! Now tell me who is going to war for the oil! Or better put who is not going to sanction the action in order to ofset thier losses by Iraq Oil? Not us as we will pay the cost and not gain much in the way of the profits. Looks more like France and Germany and even Russia would. They have in the past shown a willingness to jump in and take a risk for profit. But no propensity to do the dirty work leading to it. Something you should consider here... I suspect that indeed this thought has had much to play with thier stand on this. And in fact they mention it and already are making plans to come in after the War!

Here is some interesting reading on that slant:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030310-78929944.htm

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Well technically you can say that the Palestinians are not targeting civilians. (Notice I said technically). Every male between 18 and I think 30 are required to be in some sort of reserve military force. So basically all they have to do is say we are targeting that one male 22 year old, and they are not targeting civilians. That is why they can say that, and continually says that.

and there you give them the excuse to do so. there is no damned "technically". PERIOD. The palestinian terrorists intentionally target civilians. and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.