IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[1stdeadeye]

I am not wrong on this point!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley and 1st deadeye you all are wrong. What does it matter where the US gets its oil from now? It is hampered by OPEC. Do you think that given the chance the US would kill (notice the word kill) to have a huge oil reserve in which Opec doesn't control. Or better yet to have an oil reserve in which the US controlled. Come on I thought you were smarter then that.

Your arguement has no basis in fact. If this was the case, why did we not force Kuwait to abandon OPEC? Kuwait has huge oil reserves (that was why Iraq invaded them in the 1st place). You can not cite an example of this can you? I can disprove your arguement with Kuwait!! Besides if we want huge reserves that we can control, we can always drill in ANWR! Want to compare IQs?



You are right about it not being about the Iraqi people. It is about security. Stop the threat before it becomes unstoppable. Stop Iraq before it can grow into a North Korea type problem. You can't just run roughshod over NK because they have WMD. Stop Iraq before they rise to that threat level pure and simple!

The reason for caring that the Iraqi people are behind this is also simple. If they are for liberation, then we won't have a Viet Cong type guerrilla warfare problem.

As for the Iraqi citizen being better off then the Saudi citizen you are way off base. If Saudia Arabia treated their dissidents like Saddam, we wouldn't be in this war on terror. The Saudis would have simply killed Osama Bin Laden for his anti-monarchy dissent instead of exiling him. The Saudis also don't torture their National Soccer Team for losing a game. Apples and Oranges my friend!

[Hasty8]

A few tiny points

Collegeboy -

Description of a Useful Idiot

1stDeadeye
When you have a set of facts that is verified by two or moreINDEPENDANT and reputable organizations(here CNN, MSNBC, FOX NEWS, and AL-Jezera) then they are facts, not opinions or conspiracies.

Not entirely true. You can have soemthing that is supported and agreed upon and verified by thousands of people and it is still not a fact.

Just a few debunked facts -
The earth is the center of the universe.
The earth is flat.
The sound barrier could never be broken.

These are just a few facts that were proved to be untrue and there are even bigger ones than these.

[aaron_mag]

Re: I never said that you supported the 9/11 attacks.

Originally posted by Hasty8
I was merely trying to explain how those extremists see a lot of the problems they face as being Americas fault.

I'm not an extremist! I believe in truth, justice, the american way, and that aliens have been visiting this planet for years and their bodies are at Area 51. See. Perfectly normal individual

As for your comment on America's stance of "Your either with us or against us" is a posture we should of taken a long time ago. What really rubs my rhubarb is that France and Germany both decided that they did not have to uphold their NATO agreement and defend Turkey simply because they do not approve of the war.

As some may remember Turkey, the only NATO country that shares a border with IRaq was at first more than agreeable to allow us to use their bases as staging points with the caveat that other European NATO partners defended them should they garner any backlash because of the war. FRANDE AND GERMANY REFUSED!!!! That is totally unacceptable and I am horrified and dismayed that they have not been forcibly ejected from NATO because of that. What good is the alliance when you can pick and choose when and how you will defend other members of that alliance. I think it is issues like that where the mindset of "You are either a part of the problem or the solution" is warranted.

Both said they would defend Turkey if Iraq was threatening them. The majority of the population in Turkey is against the war. The government there really wants the foriegn aid so they are walking the tight rope between their people and the US. Turkey does not even feel threatened enough to support us in the UN. We obviously disagree on the posture the US should take with its allies. I won't argue with you there.

A lot of people are saying right now "What right gives America the power to say who is bad and who is good?" As far as I am concerned it's our billions upon billions of dollars donated to foerign aid. It's also the fact that no one else is willing to do it. Another point is that we are just cleaning up our own mess. But what can you expect. We get blamed for making the mess and we get blamed for cleaning it up.

I won't argue with you that the US has a right to look after our billions of foriegn aid. I won't argue that they should not protect their interests around the world. I still think that our best interests, however, are to show that we are willing to work with other nations and compromise. This is going to be especially true with N. Korea. It would be nice if we could form a strong coalition with China, Russia, S. Korea, and Japan during negotiations with N. Korea.

EDIT: Although as I stated in my previous post the time for compromise may be over. It has turned into a "who is in control of NATO issue."

[Collegeboy]

Re: I am not wrong on this point!

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley and 1st deadeye you all are wrong. What does it matter where the US gets its oil from now? It is hampered by OPEC. Do you think that given the chance the US would kill (notice the word kill) to have a huge oil reserve in which Opec doesn't control. Or better yet to have an oil reserve in which the US controlled. Come on I thought you were smarter then that.

Your arguement has no basis in fact. If this was the case, why did we not force Kuwait to abandon OPEC? Kuwait has huge oil reserves (that was why Iraq invaded them in the 1st place). You can not cite an example of this can you? I can disprove your arguement with Kuwait!! Besides if we want huge reserves that we can control, we can always drill in ANWR! Want to compare IQs?



You are right about it not being about the Iraqi people. It is about security. Stop the threat before it becomes unstoppable. Stop Iraq before it can grow into a North Korea type problem. You can't just run roughshod over NK because they have WMD. Stop Iraq before they rise to that threat level pure and simple!

The reason for caring that the Iraqi people are behind this is also simple. If they are for liberation, then we won't have a Viet Cong type guerrilla warfare problem.

As for the Iraqi citizen being better off then the Saudi citizen you are way off base. If Saudia Arabia treated their dissidents like Saddam, we wouldn't be in this war on terror. The Saudis would have simply killed Osama Bin Laden for his anti-monarchy dissent instead of exiling him. The Saudis also don't torture their National Soccer Team for losing a game. Apples and Oranges my friend!

1st Deadeye, did we go into Kuwait and over throw their government. No, we went in their to liberate their country and to restore the rule to the original leadership or to someone in line to be leader. You can't compare Iraq and Kuwait, too WAY different situations. Talk about apples and oranges.

Where did the most terrorist come from, yeah that is right.

Kind of funny before the Iran invasion and the sanctions and such. Iranians had loads of freedoms, and still do, that other Arabian countries don't have. Woman have more rights in Iraq then in most Arabian countries. So what is they have some draconian laws, other countries like Saudi Arabia has them at their base.

[shartley]

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

Changing criteria NOT. It is the criteria. And you wanted to square of in a test of inelligence with me.

You always go into this mood, I am right, I am older, I have more experience, you don't know anything, blah blah blah when you have nothing to say. Instead of going into your normal mantra why don't you just not post. We can live another day without your post you know.

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: I am not wrong on this point!

Originally posted by Collegeboy


1st Deadeye, did we go into Kuwait and over throw their government. No, we went in their to liberate their country and to restore the rule to the original leadership or to someone in line to be leader. You can't compare Iraq and Kuwait, too WAY different situations. Talk about apples and oranges.

WRONG!!!
When we put the monarchy back into power, we held complete sway over Kuwait. We still wield an incredible amount of influence there. If the US asked them to dump OPEC, you don't think they wouldn't? Who is not being realistic now?
We could have but did not, so why would we force OPEC out in Iraq, but not Kuwait?

You're not making sense.

As for Sam, you may have ticked him off with your"Nobody has proven me wrong yet attitude"! Yes, we have! For one how about the 2000 persons killed in an Apartment Bombing claim you made! How about the UN resolutions setting Israels occupation as illegal? On the last page ShooterJM showed that as it was never adopted, it isn't in effect. I have to run but I'll post more examples later!

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Changing criteria NOT. It is the criteria. And you wanted to square of in a test of inelligence with me.

You always go into this mood, I am right, I am older, I have more experience, you don't know anything, blah blah blah when you have nothing to say. Instead of going into your normal mantra why don't you just not post. We can live another day without your post you know.

[MarkM]

Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

You haven't hit a sore spot, I just get tired of your nonsense post you make every now and again.

And no 1stdeadeye, the US had some control over Kuwait but more or less it was UN control. The US couldn't do anything to Kuwait. And when someone proves my statements to be incorrect I admit to it, see the 2,000 number. But nothing else has been proven wrong. The UN has as Israel official boarders the partition plan of 1948. Anything over that is in direct conflict with that and is illegal.

[shartley]

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

Where did I say that since I always win arguments with grad students means I am always right? I never said I was always right. I have said (AT THAT TIME) I wasn't proven wrong. Since then I found one of my numbers was off, big time, so I said I was wrong and changed it.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


And no 1stdeadeye, the US had some control over Kuwait but more or less it was UN control. The US couldn't do anything to Kuwait. And when someone proves my statements to be incorrect I admit to it, see the 2,000 number. But nothing else has been proven wrong. The UN has as Israel official boarders the partition plan of 1948. Anything over that is in direct conflict with that and is illegal.

What? The U.S. ran the entire show! We provided the bulk of the forces. Other then the British, who else had more then a token force there? It was NEVER under UN control! It had UN blessings, not control! Please it is a very relavent comparrison. Kuwait still does pretty much everything the US asks of them. So much so that the Iraqis called the Kuwaiti Envoy to the Arab summit and American Lap Dog. You must concede this point. Further, if the US were to force IRAQ out of OPEC, it would cause a huge rift with our Saudi Arabian allies. No administration would do something that fool hardy. You stated your opinion, I have stated what I believe to be a much stronger counterpoint.

The plan in 1948 was never approved! It is a plan only! ShooterJM outlined it very clearly. If a law is proposed, it is not a law unless it passes, pretty simple! So then you are wrong.

[1stdeadeye]

Armegeddon

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

Uh-oh! Armegeddon! SHartley, CollegeBoy and I agree on something in the same thread.

MarkM,
Please read the moderators comments. They have stated they will allow this debat as long as it does not devolve into a flame fest. I would like to think that the 3 of us have had fun debating each other without flaming. Sure some people have called others names here, but not I. Please read my posts. I try to be concise and logical. Please do not impugn us as I feel we are all arguing from the heart. Although I do not agree with Collegeboy, I do not feel he is disingenuos with his agrument!

What is ILBC? Where did you quote me with me responding? You quoted Loan Brain Cell and SHartley, not Me. I try to be polite and respond when I can?

[aaron_mag]

MarkM-

Actually what always happens is that a thread gets posted and Shartley, Collegeboy, 1stdeadeye, and myself argue it to death. Then we get to a point where we give up trying to convince each other (which is probably for the best as I will AGREE with the rest).

Then someone else starts a new post on the subject. Invariably it is NEVER Shartley, Collegeboy, 1stdeadeye, or myself and starts the whole debate all over again. I typically get drawn in by "blind patriotism/support the president no matter your own personal beliefs" comments. It must be my personal pet peeve.