IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[1stdeadeye]

Back to Iraq!

Isn't it very interesting some of the couties who are backing the US in our efforts to free Iraq....Poland, Romania, and a few other former Warsaw Pact countries. These are countires that know what oppression really is. They have been free for less then a generation. They no what it is like to suffer under a totalitarian government. They want to free Iraq from the same situation.

On the other side are France, Germany, and Russia. Two democracies and a former oppressor. Hmmm Who may have a more valid point of view on this situation.

Hey, France doesn't even deserve to be a permanant member of the Security Council. They are a declining country of 60 million. Why not give their seat to the EU as a whole? Better yet, what about India, the most populous democracy in the world and in less then 20 years, the most populated nation on earth? The French are making their last stand over Iraq. They have been a non-factor in the world for many years now. They are swirling around the bowl desparately grabbing for the seat. The French should go back to wars they can win. Does GreenPeace have another ship yet?

[Collegeboy]

Re: PC may butt!

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
To compare a reufgee camp admionistered by the UN to a death camp of WWII is just wrong! Where are the "showers"? Where are the mass executions?

What about the Jordanian Camps? Are those "Concentration Camps" too? You must have been real, um..."close" to those Palestinian girls to have your head so twisted.

Yes, Clinton would have had to expend political capital to take Osama to prosecute him. He did not have the courage to do it. He let Osama walk. End of story. His own Secretary of State said so!

As for PC. That is just ridiculous. I guess we can say the ghettos of America are our concentration camps then.

If you honestly are insulted by the calling these camps in Palestine concentration camps, which they are, then you are either too PC or too easily offended.

Have you been in these camps, these girls have. I will take their word over yours any day.

What ever Clinton would have had to expend he would have gained double IMO. There is some reason why Clinton didn't grab OBL.

France deserves a spot on the council just as much as the US does. Why are the eastern European countries backing this war. They would love to not have to rely on Russian oil. It has nothing to do with the moral good of stopping oppression.

[aaron_mag]

Would have answered this sooner but the darn wife forced me to actually go out and do entertaining stuff rather than sit and debate with y'all! Women!

Originally posted by FactsOfLife
It ain't propoganda if it's fact.

Facts can be taken out of context and become propaganda.

and as for your assertion that someone walked into slick's office and said we can grab bin laden, it happened TWICE.

and he refused BOTH TIMES. I found the quote from all-not-too-bright:

on why they didn't grab UBL when he was handed to them the second time in 1996 when he was kicked out of the Sudan along with a bunch of his lackeys and sent on his way to Qatar:

The quote is from Meet The Press with Tim Russert

Albright:

"In hindsight, there probably should have been a different decision made than to let him leave the Sudan."

Russert responds:

"Why didn't you capture him when he arrived in Qatar"

Here is what I mean by out of context. Had the attack on the embassies happened at this time? Had the attack on the USS Cole happened yet? The only thing that he was suspected of was providing financing for the WTC attack in 1993 and they were not sure of it. The reason he left Sudan was because the US government forced Sudan to kick him out. It was not until 1998 that the U.S. had an indictment against him for conspiring against the United States which was just before the embassy attacks. The later attacks resulted in the cruise missile attack against the base in Afghanistan. It took 9/11 for the U.S. to invade and directly attack the al-Qaeda. By the way a Republican was in office and still we did not destroy the Afghanistan base of operations prior to 9/11. Do I blame Bush? Of course not. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: PC may butt!

Originally posted by Collegeboy


If you honestly are insulting by the calling these camps in Palestine concentration camps, which they are, then you are either too PC or too easily offended.

Have you been in these camps, these girls have. I will take their word over yours any day.

This is fight you are going to lose. They are not concentration camps! My wife's grandfather was a grunt in WWII. He arrived in Europe at the latter stages of the war. He unit arrived in Aushwitz about a week after it had liberated. He still can not talk much about it to this day with out getting very upset. He said the loss of life and depravity was on a scale that you could not even fathom. He saw more dead in one location then he had ever seen in his life. He saw and met survivors who told truly horrific tales. You insult the survivors of the holocost by using that term! I can give you the phone number of one in New York if you really want to know what a concentration camp is. Those Palestinians are using that loaded term for propaganda and sympathy! Guess what, nothing is keeping those Palistinians in the refugee camps. They can move out. Move to Gaza or Ramallah or anywhere else in the Palestinian Authority. They can leave where in a concentration camp, you only leave DEAD!


What ever Clinton would have had to expand he would have gained double IMO. There is some reason why Clinton didn't grab OBL.

The CIA was tracking OBL via his satellite phone. They knew where he was up until Clinton tried to use Cruise missles tro get him. Clinton also would not have gained from grabbing OBL anywhere but at home. OBL was considered a hero of the Afghani war and grabbing him would have cost Clinton political capital that he was unwilling to spend.

France deserves a spot on the council just as much as the US does. Why are the eastern European countries backing this war. They would not love to not have to rely on Russian oil. It has nothing to do with the moral good of stopping oppression.

Why does France deserve that veto? They did not earn it. We earned ours! As for Eastern Europe, you are wrong! Romania relies on russian oil? Don't think so. Remember their oil fields the Nazis went after? Make up another excuse now!

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Facts can be taken out of context and become propaganda.



Here is what I mean by out of context. Had the attack on the embassies happened at this time? Had the attack on the USS Cole happened yet? The only thing that he was suspected of was providing financing for the WTC attack in 1993 and they were not sure of it. The reason he left Sudan was because the US government forced Sudan to kick him out. It was not until 1998 that the U.S. had an indictment against him for conspiring against the United States which was just before the embassy attacks. The later attacks resulted in the cruise missile attack against the base in Afghanistan. It took 9/11 for the U.S. to invade and directly attack the al-Qaeda. By the way a Republican was in office and still we did not destroy the Afghanistan base of operations prior to 9/11. Do I blame Bush? Of course not. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

then maybe you'd like to explain why all-not-too-bright knew, and knows, that allowing UBL to escape was a MAJOR SCREWUP?

come on man, she's admitted that letting him go REGARDLESS of what had taken place by that time was a mistake.

and further if he wasn't so wanted, then why shoot a bunch of cruise missles at him for being a run of the mill terrorist???? bonus points?

[aaron_mag]

1stdeadeye-

The Holocaust was horrible. No one can deny that. That, however, does not make Israel guilt free for the things that have happened in Palestine. I heard an interview of a young Israeli that described learning in school that soldiers were begging Palestinians to stay because they wanted to be neighbors. The same show, however, interviewed old soldiers in the seven day war. They described coming to abandoned beautiful villages with well tended fields. A couple of days later old men showed up to the village to reclaim their homes. These old men were rounded up and trucked off to the border. That is only one such story.

I don't think the Palestinians are guilt free either. That is a mess that is not going to be easy to sort out. Clearly they can't just give the land back since new people live there now that have tilled the soil and paid for the land. Perhaps some sort of reparations will be paid. Both sides will probably not be satisfied with any solution. The Jews I'm sure feel that the reparations paid to them from the Holocaust were paltry compared to their suffering...how could they not. If Bush and the UN can make any peace there work it would be amazing. In regards to Israel/Palestine, however, the holocaust is a non issue.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


then maybe you'd like to explain why all-not-too-bright knew, and knows, that allowing UBL to escape was a MAJOR SCREWUP?

come on man, she's admitted that letting him go REGARDLESS of what had taken place by that time was a mistake.

and further if he wasn't so wanted, then why shoot a bunch of cruise missles at him for being a run of the mill terrorist???? bonus points?

Why did they fire a bunch of cruise missiles at him? Because of the embassy bombings! You talk of not getting him when he left Sudan which was in 1996. They did not have an indictment for him conspiring against the US until 1998. They started investigating him heavily in 1996 because he was spewing all sorts of militant Islamic fundamentalism against the US and against the rulers of Saudi Arabia. I am not saying that not picking him up when he left Sudan was not a mistake in hindsight. I am not saying that the cruise missile attack was ineffective (in that it didn't kill him) in hindsight. In hindsight we were stripping down the CIA too much because of the end of the Cold War. On the other hand I can predict weather with 100 percent accuracy in hindsight. It is not a democrat/republican screw up that caused 9/11. There is some truth that times were good. No more Cold War. Treaties were being signed so that we did not have to worry about nuclear armageddon. We were happy and driving our stock prices to high heaven. If we are to blame anyone we must all take some blame. Except for you of course

[Jack_Dubious]

Aaron_mag,
I gotta totally agree with you on your previous statement. The holocaust should be a definate non-issue in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Also I think if we could have an unbiased view of what goes on there we would realize that the Palestinians are not so bad, the Israelis are not so good, and both sides have blood on thier hands.



JDub

[cphilip]

You folks want to see why France, Germany, Russia and China would want to KEEP Saddam in power?

Read this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Why did they fire a bunch of cruise missiles at him? Because of the embassy bombings! You talk of not getting him when he left Sudan which was in 1996. They did not have an indictment for him conspiring against the US until 1998. They started investigating him heavily in 1996 because he was spewing all sorts of militant Islamic fundamentalism against the US and against the rulers of Saudi Arabia. I am not saying that not picking him up when he left Sudan was not a mistake in hindsight. I am not saying that the cruise missile attack was ineffective (in that it didn't kill him) in hindsight. In hindsight we were stripping down the CIA too much because of the end of the Cold War. On the other hand I can predict weather with 100 percent accuracy in hindsight. It is not a democrat/republican screw up that caused 9/11. There is some truth that times were good. No more Cold War. Treaties were being signed so that we did not have to worry about nuclear armageddon. We were happy and driving our stock prices to high heaven. If we are to blame anyone we must all take some blame. Except for you of course

why exactly would I personally take blame for this?

I have no interest in repeating the mistakes of the past, and putting my country at further risk from a bunch of dirty nightshirt wearing savages who want to kill all of us.

I do however place the blame where it's deserved. and I need look no further than the people who were immediately in power before Bush.

By their OWN admission they make themselves culpable for the non-capture of UBL.

hindsight has ZERO to do with it.

[1stdeadeye]

Hold on there!

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
Aaron_mag,
I gotta totally agree with you on your previous statement. The holocaust should be a definate non-issue in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

I didn't bring "Concentration Camps" into this debate, CollegeBoy did! I asked him not to use that term he defended it. I took exception with that. End of Story!


Also I think if we could have an unbiased view of what goes on there we would realize that the Palestinians are not so bad, the Israelis are not so good, and both sides have blood on thier hands.


Nobody is disagreeing with this either. However, I have stated that with a foe this stubborn, if Israel were to turn the other cheek, that cheek would be blown up to. Should the Palestinians get a country of their own. Yes. Are they going about it the right way? No. Think Ghandi! He led India to Freedom without violence. He made the British the bad guys there. Here the Palestinians are giving Sharon excuses to attack. A non-violent civil disobedience campaign would take away any perceived Israeli moral high ground! Will it ever happen? Not with Yasser Arafat in charge!

[Lone Brain Cell]

Originally posted by cphilip
You folks want to see why France, Germany, Russia and China would want to KEEP Saddam in power?

Read this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

Well done cphilip.
I stated this fact a while ago, But couldnt back it up with a written document.
I stated that all this Veto crud was complete B/S. these Countries stand to loose millions or even Billions if Sadam is replaced. If he is replaced then No more food for oil.
What you hear on the media is just what they want you to hear. If France said we are not going to support a U.S -Brittish invasion of Iraq because in doing so our FAT contracts with sadam will be terminated. & then we will have to BUY oil & pay the real price. That would mean our Cheese & breadsticks would have to be more expensive. Doesnt have the same impact as the B/S that they have stated in the media does it.

[1stdeadeye]

Great article

Originally posted by cphilip
You folks want to see why France, Germany, Russia and China would want to KEEP Saddam in power?

Read this: http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm217.cfm

This is a great article CPhil. Can you find the direct US Government reports that these facts came from? Not questioning the facts at all. I am completely on board France strictly being selfish in this matter. However I want to beat CollegeBoy and others from attacking your post stating that the Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank. The original data sources will disarm them before they can attack those facts!

[Lone Brain Cell]

Re: Great article

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


This is a great article CPhil. Can you find the direct US Government reports that these facts came from? Not questioning the facts at all. I am completely on board France strictly being selfish in this matter. However I want to beat CollegeBoy and others from attacking your post stating that the Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank. The original data sources will disarm them before they can attack those facts!

Hey it has been written on paper. so Collegeboy should believe it. oh hang on.......he wasnt the one that found tha article was he........Ok before Collegeboy says it " "its complete B/S, backed up with Lies & propoganda. I read between the lines & saw that america pays for concentration camps in the middle east, And I heard that once upon a time Israel actually killed a puppy once"

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: Great article

Originally posted by Lone Brain Cell


And I heard that once upon a time Israel actually killed a puppy once"

They killed Kenny, You BASTAR....oops you said puppy, my bad!