IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[cphilip]

Re: Great article

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Can you find the direct US Government reports that these facts came from? Not questioning the facts at all.

Nope... I just find em and read em and if they are interesting I pass em on. I make no claims or denials as to their accuracy. That is their responsibililty to do.

You should question all facts from all angles. Somewhere in between often lies the truth. Sometimes they are right and sometimes wrong. Good to question stuff! Go dig into it and see if you can prove it or not! I am sure they reference where they get that from.

[FactsOfLife]

Re: Great article

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


This is a great article CPhil. Can you find the direct US Government reports that these facts came from? Not questioning the facts at all. I am completely on board France strictly being selfish in this matter. However I want to beat CollegeBoy and others from attacking your post stating that the Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank. The original data sources will disarm them before they can attack those facts!

the article is well put together with the bibliography and source materials included in the article itself.

the fact that it doesn't come directly from the US Gubment is a plus in it's favor.

but then again, our resident conspiracy theorist will doubt its veracity regardless....

[Collegeboy]

First off, the word concentration camp is a generic word to describe the above. If you want to get more specific the name general applied to German's concentration camps during wwii is generally called Nazi Death Camps. If I was making the comparison I would call the concentration camps in Palestine, Nazi Death Camps, since I am not making the comparison I will call them concentration camps. I don't think you can just get up and move from one camp to another. By just the impression I got from the girls telling me what they have to go through to get to school, I don't think it is as easy as getting up and moving. I never asked that question so I don't know. To the OBL question, it is easy as has been said to use hindsight. But there is a reason why Clinton didn't do it. You through your bias say it is because Clinton was only looking out for himself. I say there is another reason. France is a major power in the world. Another reason they deserve it is they are not afraid to say no to the US. Which is a definite plus?

Actually no I won't FOL, and no I am not a conspiracy theorist. I have no doubt that those who oppose the US lead war have their own interest at hand. The same way I know those who back the US has their own interest at hand (including the US). As the standard saying goes. There are no morals in politics, only dollars and power.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Actually no I won't FOL, and no I am not a conspiracy theorist.

who mentioned names? guilty conscience bud?

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


who mentioned names? guilty conscience bud?

[Jack_Dubious]

Re: Hold on there!

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

I didn't bring "Concentration Camps" into this debate, CollegeBoy did! I asked him not to use that term he defended it. I took exception with that. End of Story!

Nobody is disagreeing with this either. However, I have stated that with a foe this stubborn, if Israel were to turn the other cheek, that cheek would be blown up to. Should the Palestinians get a country of their own. Yes. Are they going about it the right way? No. Think Ghandi! He led India to Freedom without violence. He made the British the bad guys there. Here the Palestinians are giving Sharon excuses to attack. A non-violent civil disobedience campaign would take away any perceived Israeli moral high ground! Will it ever happen? Not with Yasser Arafat in charge!

I wasnt really blaming anyone in particular when i said the holocaust should be a non-issue. I was just saying it as a general statement about Israel/Palestine.

Now about this supposed "Ghandi" fellow...you say that he led India to freedom....without violence??? *GASP* What a strange concept......are you sure? I thought Peace and Freedom only come from Violence and War...


JDub

[1stdeadeye]

Move on!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
First off, the word concentration camp is a generic word to describe the above. If you want to get more specific the name general applied to German's concentration camps during wwii is generally called Nazi Death Camps. If I was making the comparison I would call the concentration camps in Palestine, Nazi Death Camps, since I am not making the comparison I will call them concentration camps. I don't think you can just get up and move from one camp to another. By just the impression I got from the girls telling me what they have to go through to get to school, I don't think it is as easy as getting up and moving. I never asked that question so I don't know.

Who called them Nazi death camps? Ask the general public about a concentration camp. Most will say WWII and Nazi Germany. Guess what, before the Intifada, the Palestinians had remarkable freedom of movement. A mojority of them that work, work in Israel proper. The Israelis were forces to make their movements so restricted to head off potential suicide atacks. The huge monstrousity of a super fence that Israel is building along their border with the West Bank speaks volumes. They are willing to divide the land and make peace, just not at the point of a gun. Why else build a huge electric border fence in the middle of your own country. The Israelis are preparing for the eventuality of peace. Maybe if the Palestinians would agree to the Israeli demands for a complete stop of all attacks, the Palestinians will get their homeland. Remember this, Israel had a Dove for a PM. The escalation of Palestinian violence brought Sharon to power. They still have not given his peace plan a chance yet.

To the OBL question, it is easy as has been said to use hindsight. But there is a reason why Clinton didn't do it. You through your bias say it is because Clinton was only looking out for himself. I say there is another reason.

Yes, the cost was to high. He didn't want his buddies in the Middle East to not like him or US. As I said, Clinton was an incredible politician. His instincts for the public's sentiment were almost always spot on. That being said, he never put himself out on a limb for his beliefs. I do not like Clinton mostly for that reason. I can respect Collegeboy for sticking to his beliefs, however wrong I feel they are. He took a position. Clinton changed positions or policies with whichever way the wind blew!

France is a major power in the world. Another reason they deserve it is they are not afraid to say no to the US. Which is a definite plus?

France a major world power? LOL

France is almost a third world nation. They have no economic might to speak of or a military of any consequence. Russia has a mighty military and Arsenal. China is a very strong economic machine and has a formidable military as well. The British are a tier below those two. The French are way down the list. Heck they are second fiddle to Germany in the E.U.!

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: Hold on there!

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious


I wasnt really blaming anyone in particular when i said the holocaust should be a non-issue. I was just saying it as a general statement about Israel/Palestine.

Now about this supposed "Ghandi" fellow...you say that he led India to freedom....without violence??? *GASP* What a strange concept......are you sure? I thought Peace and Freedom only come from Violence and War...


JDub

I am not the one in the Korea thread who said bomb them all! I am not a warmonger! Unfortunatly in Iraq, Saddam has given us no other choice!

I am all for a peaceful solution. When the Palestinians were dealing with a dove PM in Israel, instead of taking advantage and negotiating for a land of their own, they start the Intifada. Things were looking pretty good for the Palestinians before this began. They were receiving a lot of international aid. They had just opened their own international airport. The Palestinian Authority was collecting taxes from it's constituents. They were on their way to real peace and then some knuckle head had to go and start the Intifada. I stated the thing about Ghandi because it was possible then. Now, I just don't know anymore.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

yeah, busted.

[pbstu]

yes cphillip, good article. i took a look around the site, know whats missing? a single article that says war in iraq is wrong. here, look for yourself.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/index.cfm

i couldnt find anything, maybe you can. bias sites are usually about as good as stuff that comes directly from the US government, which is to say not very good. i can quote all i want from www.indymedia.org and not expect you to believe anything that comes from there, do you really expect anyone thats leftwing to believe anything that comes from www.heritage.org, no matter how truthful it may seem?


stu.

[Collegeboy]

Alot of people call them Nazi Death Camps. I am surprised you haven't heard it called that. The general public isn't really informed enough to make a fair and correct assessment. Why do you think they call it playing to the ignorance of the populace? Why do you think Ike never voted tell after he was President, he didn't think the people should vote for they were and could never be fairly informed. Before you start throwing out the word Palestine remember that not all Palestinians are represented by these terrorist groups. Palestinians themselves are not terrorist but certain groups in them are.

You can keep telling yourself that was the reason, but anyone should be able to step back and see that it is more to it then that. Hindsight is bad.

France is an industrialized country. They are a major power. And no the Eu shouldn't get a seat that would give countries like Germany two votes, that is almost like giving a vote to the Council of the Americas (I think that is its name)

FOL

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
France is an industrialized country. They are a major power.

the manufacture and consumption of cheese products hardly makes one a major power.

[Collegeboy]

Industries:
machinery, chemicals, automobiles, metallurgy, aircraft, electronics; textiles, food processing; tourism

Exports:
$307.8 billion (f.o.b., 2002)

Exports - commodities:
machinery and transportation equipment, aircraft, plastics, chemicals, pharmaceutical products, iron and steel, beverages

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Industries:
machinery, chemicals, automobiles, metallurgy, aircraft, electronics; textiles, food processing; tourism

machinery: make the cheese.

chemicals: make the cheese taste good.

automobiles: drive the cheese around.

metallurgy: to make the metal used to make cheese machines, airplanes and cars to drive the cheese around.

aircraft: to fly the cheese around.

electronics: cheese testing?

textiles: easy, cheesecloth.

food processing: eating cheese.

tourism: show everyone the cheese.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Alot of people call them Nazi Death Camps. I am surprised you haven't heard it called that. The general public isn't really informed enough to make a fair and correct assessment. Why do you think they call it playing to the ignorance of the populace? Why do you think Ike never voted tell after he was President, he didn't think the people should vote for they were and could never be fairly informed. (edited out content)

You can keep telling yourself that was the reason, but anyone should be able to step back and see that it is more to it then that. Hindsight is bad.