IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[Collegeboy]

Re: Huh?

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Okay, you're not biased. The Palestinians should keep up with the Suicide attacks until the Israelis pull out of the settlements? You are also wrong about the attacks. Al Asqua Martyrs Brigade is a division of Fatah (Arafat's party). They have commited quite a few of these murderous attacks!

Question. Who started this round of fighting? Who launched this Intifada?

Israel already made the first move. They laid down the terms upon which they would negotiate with the Palestinians. Israel only attacks in retribution currently. Who can blame them? That is what we did in Afghanistan.

Yes, the settlements are a problem. They are on average ocupied by a few hundred people each. Most of them are Zealots as well. Israel can't force them out. What they can do is remove their military protection which is a huge drain on Israel's economy. Will it happen? No. That would be political suicide.

Who has more to gain by stopping the violence? The Palestinians do. It might even get them a country.

How can you expect a population to stop fighting for their freedom (yes that is what they think they are doing) while they are being opressed (Again this is in the thought of the Palestinians)

[1stdeadeye]

Not that simple.

Originally posted by PolishSausage
I'm not going to read every signle post here, I can get the jist of what was going on anyways.

I just have one question for those anti-bush/war/whatever

How does leaving Saddam in power promote peace?

answer that and I'll be happy

I don't think anyone here is for leaving Saddam in power. Our debat is more or less how to get rid of him. For the record, I don't think Saddam is leaving us any choice but military action.

If you think about it though. Why should Saddam fight a war he knows he is going to lose? Why not just pocket his looted billions and go into exile to live a life of luxary like many of the former African dictators did. He could move anywhere. The French have taken in foreign dictators before, let them have Saddam.

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: Huh?

Originally posted by Collegeboy


How can you expect a population to stop fighting for their freedom (yes that is what they think they are doing) while they are being opressed (Again this is in the thought of the Palestinians)

How can you expect the Israeli's to cave to terrorism? They feel that this terrorism threatens their existance! You can't look at one side without seeing the other. The Palestinians started the Intifad and they must end it. That is the only possible solution. Arafat can look like a hero for doing so. Sharon has no leway there. Arafat can also bring legitimate international pressure to bear on Israel if he does this. Who has the most to gain from a Palestinian cessation of violence? The Palestinians do.

P.S. The Indians felt that the British oppressed them. Ghandi worked non-violently to change this. He succeded. Martin Luther King felt that Blacks were being oppressed in the 60's. Did he go to war? No, he non-violently led the way to change in our country. When was the last time terrorism was successfull? Think the Palestinians may want to rethink their methods?

[Collegeboy]

I am not disagreeing I think a nonviolence approach will do best, but it will never happen. To bad though.

But Israel HAS to make the first move and back out of the occupied territory

If Palestinian terrorist groups stop attacking, that still doesn't solve anything. Israel will still be on occupied land. If Israel leaves, this will take away any claim the Palestinians have. Right now they can say they are freedom fighters fighting for their freedom from the evil oppressing Israelis, while I disagree with that, they have some merit to it. Hence why the majority of the world backs the Palestinians. Now once Israel moves out they can't say that anymore.

This isn't coming from a bias, but a realization of the problem.

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by PolishSausage

I just have one question for those anti-bush/war/whatever

How does leaving Saddam in power promote peace?

answer that and I'll be happy

Since there is no clear cut post-invasion plans and no clear successor when Saddam is removed, the region will fall into chaos. And as a previous US leader has remarked, an Iraq occupied by the US could have a very bleak outcome.

Remember what happened the last time a Superpower invaded an Islamic country and set up a puppet government?


JDub

[1stdeadeye]

Where do you get these facts!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I am not disagreeing I think a nonviolence approach will do best, but it will never happen. To bad though.

But Israel HAS to make the first move and back out of the occupied territory

Not gonna happen. The Palestinians will have to make the first move!


If Palestinian terrorist groups stop attacking, that still doesn't solve anything. Israel will still be on occupied land. If Israel leaves, this will take away any claim the Palestinians have. Right now they can say they are freedom fighters fighting for their freedom from the evil oppressing Israelis, while I disagree with that, they have some merit to it. Hence why the majority of the world backs the Palestinians. Now once Israel moves out they can't say that anymore.

This isn't coming from a bias, but a realization of the problem.

There you go making up facts again! The majority of the world does NOT back the Palestinians. The majority of the world wants peace there though. Murder and terrorism can not lead to peace. The terror must end first.

You may have spoken to a couple of Palestinians, but I have spoken with a few Jordanians and Lebanese. Most other Arabs HATE the Palestinians! They are only backing them because they want the Palestinians out of their own country. It is also a case of who do you hate more. For the Arabs who detest both groups, they hate the Israeli's more. That is why the Jordanian REFUGEE Camps are so bleak. The Jordanians want the Palestinians out of their country ASAP. That is why the Jordanians never built cities/towns/villages for the Palestinians in the past 50 years! Think on that!

[Collegeboy]

Nope until Israel backs away from land they should not be on, peace will never happen. Again go back to my proposal.

I am not making up anything. The majority of the world sees the Palestinians as having a just cause in kicking Israel off of Palestinian land.

The Palestinians are like the Jews. No one wants them in their country (hence why Israel was created). All the reason for a Palestinian State.

[aaron_mag]

Re: Where do you get these facts!

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
You may have spoken to a couple of Palestinians, but I have spoken with a few Jordanians and Lebanese. Most other Arabs HATE the Palestinians! They are only backing them because they want the Palestinians out of their own country. It is also a case of who do you hate more. For the Arabs who detest both groups, they hate the Israeli's more. That is why the Jordanian REFUGEE Camps are so bleak. The Jordanians want the Palestinians out of their country ASAP. That is why the Jordanians never built cities/towns/villages for the Palestinians in the past 50 years! Think on that!

Thinking on it..........you seem to be implying that the other Arab nations don't want house homeless refugees. That is a common reaction to refugees. Lets see has any other group of people been persecuted and looking for a land to call their own? I take it that you get my meaning.

I totally believe that surrounding nations do not want Palestinian refugees. The real question is SO WHAT? It does not mean that the Palestinians are somehow evil, depraved, or deserve to be homeless does it? It says more about peoples reaction to others in need (note I say people because the reaction is pretty universal and I include myself in the category). This reaction is basically I have mine and I do not want to share. Once again to be absolutely clear I am not putting myself on higher moral ground. This is exactly the way I am as well.

By saying this I am not placing Palestinians on a moral pedestal either. After all if they were happy to share their land with a displaced people in the first place we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? My point is that whether Jordanians and Lebanese enjoy having Palestinian refugees in their borders does not mean that they do not have some legitimate grievances.

[AcemanPB]

As we are getting ready to go to war I was thinking.

When and if we take out Saddam, what next? Many people seem to believe that it's *poof* everyone is happy and all the fighting stops. I still fail to see what going to war with Iraq will accomplish.


Why should we or why do we have the right to take Saddam out of power? Is he really as bad as the American news makes him out to be?

[Koosh]

Originally posted by AcemanPB
As we are getting ready to go to war I was thinking.

When and if we take out Saddam, what next? Many people seem to believe that it's *poof* everyone is happy and all the fighting stops. I still fail to see what going to war with Iraq will accomplish.


Why should we or why do we have the right to take Saddam out of power? Is he really as bad as the American news makes him out to be?

He's worse. The American news cant describe with a million words what terrors he can do to people who speak out against him. He has men who's ONLY job is to forcibally RAPE women in order to get information from them and the men that care for them.

There is no question Saddam needs to go. But I look at this with a little hypocrisy. I can guarantee you that there are some othe nations out there with leaders just as bad if not worse then him, yet nothing is done. Of course we didn't fight against the other nations when they invaded a smaller neighbor country either, so there would be no political backing for it...

One more thing, I must say, I read the last 5 pages of this thread, and I must say, You are all idiots. Every single one. Well, not everyone, just the ones who argued about the concentration camps... I was reading that and just thinking about how much time was wasted while coming up with responses on both sides...

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh
One more thing, I must say, I read the last 5 pages of this thread, and I must say, You are all idiots. Every single one. Well, not everyone, just the ones who argued about the concentration camps... I was reading that and just thinking about how much time was wasted while coming up with responses on both sides...

Well then welcome to the group of idiots. Think of how much time you wasted reading the last five pages . LOL!

[1stdeadeye]

READ!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Nope until Israel backs away from land they should not be on, peace will never happen. Again go back to my proposal.

IT WILL NOT/CAN NOT HAPPEN! By the way, any land you conquer is yours until you either give it up or get kikced out! Only Arafat has the political capital to end the cycle of violence and begin real peace negotiations!


I am not making up anything. The majority of the world sees the Palestinians as having a just cause in kicking Israel off of Palestinian land.

Where are you getting this divine knowledge? Is this more of your "I heard it"? You do not know what you are talking about. Who said it was the Palestinians land to begin with? Until 1948, it belonged to the Brits. It belonged to the Jews a few thousand years ago. There is more then 1 group with a legitimate claim to those lands! Have you ever talked to anyone from the middle east besides your Palestinian friends? I know quite a few on both sides. A good friend of mine studied in Israel for a semester. He said it was remarkable that you had to have armed security guards everywhere, even at religous ceremonies because the suicide bombers were fond of soft targets!

The Palestinians are like the Jews. No one wants them in their country (hence why Israel was created). All the reason for a Palestinian State.

Here you are correct! *gasp*

It won't happen until the Palestinians cease the terror though. This is for the reasons I have posted here a dozen times! Terror will never force Israel to the negotiating table.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Well then welcome to the group of idiots. Think of how much time you wasted reading the last five pages . LOL!

Thanks for the welcome! I'm always glad to join the herd!

[1stdeadeye]

Re: Re: Where do you get these facts!

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Thinking on it..........you seem to be implying that the other Arab nations don't want house homeless refugees. That is a common reaction to refugees. Lets see has any other group of people been persecuted and looking for a land to call their own? I take it that you get my meaning.[

I totally believe that surrounding nations do not want Palestinian refugees. The real question is SO WHAT? It does not mean that the Palestinians are somehow evil, depraved, or deserve to be homeless does it? It says more about peoples reaction to others in need (note I say people because the reaction is pretty universal and I include myself in the category). This reaction is basically I have mine and I do not want to share. Once again to be absolutely clear I am not putting myself on higher moral ground. This is exactly the way I am as well.

Actually you are partially right. A lot of it goes back to ancient hatreds between tribes/clans. They didn't get along before Israel either! Remember, there are very long memories in that part of the world. Look at the situations in Cyprus and Kosovo. My goodness, the Serbs in Kosovo were trying to avenge a battle from 400 years ago! I am not calling them evil, just pointing out old ethnic hatreds there are deep and entrenched. The refugee part doesn't help much either.

By saying this I am not placing Palestinians on a moral pedestal either. After all if they were happy to share their land with a displaced people in the first place we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? My point is that whether Jordanians and Lebanese enjoy having Palestinian refugees in their borders does not mean that they do not have some legitimate grievances.

Did not say they didn't. I am saying that this is not a one sided affair as CB thinks it is. The Palestinians started the fighting during the current upriseing and they need to end it in order to achieve anything at the negotiating table!

[1stdeadeye]

WRONG!

Originally posted by TheFlamingKoosh


One more thing, I must say, I read the last 5 pages of this thread, and I must say, You are all idiots. Every single one. Well, not everyone, just the ones who argued about the concentration camps... I was reading that and just thinking about how much time was wasted while coming up with responses on both sides...

Have you ever met a holocost survivor? Have you ever spoken to any G.I.s that saw the camps? Do so and then come back to me to tell me how trivial that debate was!