IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[shartley]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I didn't read this thread, except for what Army posted.........

Originally posted by Restola
Eh I dont really agree with that...

Would you leave so peacefully if your state was given to another country?

Originally posted by Restola
I wish people would stop saying that, considering it is completely incorrect and you probably know better. Last I heard there were over 40 countries openly supporting the US action against Iraq. Rather than quoting some liberal line, tell the truth.

[aaron_mag]

Re: Re: Re: I didn't read this thread, except for what Army posted.........

Originally posted by shartley

Without the backing of the U.S. Israel would get slaughtered by surrounding nations. So how does our input effect the social darwinism you expouse? I am not saying we abandon Israel but we do have some responsibility for the situation there. To sit back and say, "it has nothing to do with us" is in error. I will not say that I know what to do about the situation. It is just NUTS. What I do believe, however, is the Palestinians will never garner any support if terrorist attacks continue. They need to follow the peaceful protests of Gandhi and Mandela. That will bring the U.S. on their side which is what they REALLY need. Pissing us off is not going to do much for them...

[Restola]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


There is no palestinian state.

I'll clarify. I was comparing their situation to if Texas, Ohio, or New York, etc was given to another country.

[ShooterJM]

Hehehe off topic a bit but:

Hmmmm I agree if all surrounding nations attacked Israel they'd be in for a struggle, but if they did it one at a time, I think Israel would roll over them. You want to talk about a battle hardened army...jeez.



EDIT: Gotcha. It's a bit closer to the south's attitude toward the north in the civil war. Except in this case the south doesn't believe the north should even be allowed to exist.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
Hmmmm I agree if all surrounding nations attacked Israel they'd be in for a struggle, but if they did it one at a time, I think Israel would roll over them. You want to talk about a battle hardened army...jeez.

Yes they did it but they can thank us for the arms that allowed them to do it. We make REALLY good weapons and having those weapons (thankfully for us) gives you a huge advantage. My point is if they didn't get financial aid and arms from us they would be in a world of hurt. As I said I am not advocating that we abandon them but rather saying that we do have something to do with their existence in the region.

If I gave a guy a gun and nothing to you and said the guy who wins the fight gets to have the house would I have influenced the outcome at all?

[Collegeboy]

Shartly if you are for the law of survival of the fittest, why don't you back the stopping of all military aid to Israel. If Palestine was given the aide that Israel gets they will result to military maneuvers and actions. But until then they are trying to get back their land the only way they know how to.

AS to saying these attacks are cowardly, I understand that they are killing civilians. But I am not sure what is more cowardly. Flying a plane over an area that you know can not fire over to drop a bomb on a building full of civilians and one terrorist (who happens to be the leader of a group), standing back and firing missiles into an apartment complex that you know you can't receive fire back, or walking into a crowd blowing yourself up and killing civilians around you. You can take any side you want, but I think both sides show cowardness.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartly if you are for the law of survival of the fittest, why don't you back the stopping of all military aid to Israel. If Palestine was given the aide that Israel gets they will result to military maneuvers and actions. But until then they are trying to get back their land the only way they know how to.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
AS to saying these attacks are cowardly, I understand that they are killing civilians. But I am not sure what is more cowardly. Flying a plane over an area that you know can not fire over to drop a bomb on a building full of civilians and one terrorist (who happens to be the leader of a group), standing back and firing missiles into an apartment complex that you know you can't receive fire back, or walking into a crowd blowing yourself up and killing civilians around you. You can take any side you want, but I think both sides show cowardness.

[Collegeboy]

Countries give as much aid as Israel allows them to. Most of the aid comes from the UN through these countries. Which is how it is suppose to work, but the US just bipasses this. Do you think the US will allow any country to arm the Palestinians?

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But until then they are trying to get back their land the only way they know how to.

AS to saying these attacks are cowardly, I understand that they are killing civilians. But I am not sure what is more cowardly. Flying a plane over an area that you know can not fire over to drop a bomb on a building full of civilians and one terrorist (who happens to be the leader of a group), standing back and firing missiles into an apartment complex that you know you can't receive fire back, or walking into a crowd blowing yourself up and killing civilians around you.

Wow. I mean where to start? Are you trying to stand there and say palastinians don't have any other weapons? You're going to actually take the stance that palestine doesn't have anti-tank rockets, thousands upon thousands of automatic weapons, etc? And that they're not using military grade explosives for their suicide bombs? Is that what you're saying?

Dropping a bomb is cowardly? Oh wait....hmm drop a bomb kill the terrorist and tops 15 other people, who may be very well be innocent, but who also know who they're associating with (cept for the kids). Ok, OR run into a restaurant full of non combatants who aren't associating with any murderers, and kill them? Oh yeah. that's the same. You gotta be a real hard *** to do that. I mean, all those poor 12 yr old girls might gang up on you. And look that nursing mother or those newlyweds might attack at any second.

So lets review. Kill a terrorist target, some associates, a few innocents. Or murder a bunch of innocents.

You are mind boggeling.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Countries give as much aid as Israel allows them to. Most of the aid comes from the UN through these countries. Which is how it is suppose to work, but the US just bipasses this. Do you think the US will allow any country to arm the Palestinians?

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by shartley
We could simply tell the world to behave and stop their fighting and it would happen.

Lol, our new three stages of diplomacy:

1) "Stop that. STOP THAT NOW."

2) "I don't want to have to seperate you two!"

3) "ALRIGHT, I SWEAR ON ALL THAT'S GOOD AND HOLY, I'LL TURN THIS CAR RIGHT AROUND!!!"

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


Wow. I mean where to start? Are you trying to stand there and say palastinians don't have any other weapons? You're going to actually take the stance that palestine doesn't have anti-tank rockets, thousands upon thousands of automatic weapons, etc? And that they're not using military grade explosives for their suicide bombs? Is that what you're saying?

Dropping a bomb is cowardly? Oh wait....hmm drop a bomb kill the terrorist and tops 15 other people, who may be very well be innocent, but who also know who they're associating with (cept for the kids). Ok, OR run into a restaurant full of non combatants who aren't associating with any murderers, and kill them? Oh yeah. that's the same. You gotta be a real hard *** to do that. I mean, all those poor 12 yr old girls might gang up on you. And look that nursing mother or those newlyweds might attack at any second.

So lets review. Kill a terrorist target, some associates, a few innocents. Or murder a bunch of innocents.

You are mind boggeling.

What is worse flying over killing one terrorist while killing 15 civilians. Or walking into a resturant killing 15 innocents as well as 5 military members. Both are equally bad. Both should stop.

[ShooterJM]

Oh that's right! You're the guy who thinks targeting terrorists is the same as targeting civilians and kids! I got confused for a second.

Hey look....an article.....let's see from the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a think tank set up after Sept. 11 to study terrorism.


"Palestinian representatives and their pan-Arab sympathizers often complain that the United States favors Israel in the Middle East conflict and that we approach every peace negotiation with that unalterable bias in mind.

President Bush, like all his predecessors, has found it politically expedient to deny this, mostly because our dependence on Saudi oil and investments necessitates tact and sometimes even outright pandering.

But the truth is that we do favor the Israelis, morally that is, and there is a simple reason for this. They don't murder children. That is not to say, however, that they are blameless. Any reasonable, well-informed person, including many American Jews, will readily concede that the Israelis aren't saints. As one woman told me recently, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon "is a bull."

They, like us, have been responsible for civilian deaths during war and tactical incursions. But there is a big difference between attempting to avoid but sometimes inflicting civilian casualties (in this case, by risking booby traps and going house to house on foot as the Israeli army has been doing) and targeting civilians purposely, as Al Qaeda did Sept. 11 and as Palestinian gunmen did Saturday when they rushed into the Adora settlement and killed four noncombatants, including a 5-year-old girl, at home on the Sabbath. The moral difference is all in the intent.

What must it take to pull the trigger on a 5-year-old cowering on a bed?

Of course, the response to all of this is that Israel too has killed defenseless civilians, including children. Remember the 12-year-old Palestinian boy and his father caught in an alcove during a shootout? They were pictured ubiquitously in the news a year and a half ago as symbols of Israeli brutality. But a recent report has called into question whether the boy was killed by Israelis or Palestinians. Regardless, he was killed in cross-fire, not purposely. That matters.

What's more, though that boy was a noncombatant, as his father's furiously waving a white flag indicated, many are not. Yet Palestinian representatives in the West either ignore this or omit mention of it.

Here is a typical screed from Columbia University professor Edward Said:

"The monstrous transformation of an entire people by a formidable and feared propaganda machine into little more than militants and terrorists has allowed not just Israel's military but its fleet of writers and defenders to efface a terrible history of injustice, suffering and abuse in order to destroy the civil existence of the Palestinian people with impunity.... Are Palestinian civilian men, women and children no more than rats or cockroaches that can be attacked and killed in the thousands without so much as a word of compassion or in their defense?"

Now consider this statement, from a Middle East Media Research Institute report quoting Abu Jendal of Islamic Jihad, who was interviewed several times by the Al Jazeera satellite television network during recent fighting in the Jenin refugee camp.

"Believe me, there are children stationed in the houses with explosive belts at their sides," Jendal said. "Today, one of the children came to me with his school bag. I asked him what he wanted, and he replied, 'Instead of books, I want an explosive device, in order to attack.' "

And again, the institute's Web site reported that the Islamic Jihad commander in Jenin, Mahmoud Tawalbeh (later found dead), had prevented Palestinian civilians from leaving the camp.

The Islamic Jihad announcement went on to say that Tawalbeh "had thwarted all attempts by the occupation to evacuate the camp residents to make it easier for the Israelis to destroy [the camp] on the heads of the fighters."

In light of this shocking news, we have to ask ourselves if we can treat with moral equivalence a group of people who not only execute enemy children in their homes but also send their own children and other civilians into battle and still have the audacity to pretend outrage when these individuals are killed."


Wake up man.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
What is worse flying over killing one terrorist while killin 15 civilians. Or walking into a resturant killing 15 innocents as well as 5 military members. Both are equally bad. Both should stop