Would The US Been Able to Win WWII Without the USSR?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Actually it was Aw Nuts, but that is alright.

Did you actually know that it took Patton and his army (one of which was my grandfather, redball express), like 3 days or so longer then suppose to, to reach Bastogne.

Why? Because of the weather. The same weather that held allied airpower on the ground, slowed Patton to a crawl. It was not lack of effort on his part to get there, but bad roads and weather.

Hey CB-"Nuts to you!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Two things:

On the third day of the attack, the weather cleared and allied air power was brought to bear on the German atackers, decimating their armor and lines.

Second: "Nuts"

My mistake. The weather cleared on the 7th day, not the third. Talk about getting biblical on the Germans!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
"1stdeadeye, you magnificent bastard! I read your thread!" -General Patton (if he was on AO)

Thank you sir! Now if you will please stop hitting me, I promise I'll stop crying like a woman.

[Greg98]

Originally posted by SprayingMango
The United States would win no matter what, because WE WILL ALWAYS WIN!

End of story.

Don't forget the war of 1812, you guys lost that one too. And don't try and debate that one, you tried to take over our country and failed, that is a loss. End of story

[-J�ker-]

Originally posted by Johnny_Reb
Joker you obviously dont realize how big a help Patton was, besides being a great general for the US he also inspired those around him to fight well.

IMO with the exception of Robert E. Lee and Stonewell Jackson he could very well be one of the best generals in United States history. Yeah and "holding them off" doesnt exactly mean they were "kicking their butts". Sure holding off Germans while outnumbered is impressive but unless they drive em off they didnt kick their butts IMO.

look im not putting the guy down yea he was good yea he helped but hes overrated ok simple as that

[Johnny_Reb]

How is he overrated Joker, im curious?

[-J�ker-]

lots of ppl and books think he was the stuff... but he was just really smart like i said he was good but not that good

[Johnny_Reb]

Just who are these ppl and books your losing me bro Just forget it everyones entitled to their own opinions I s'pose

[1stdeadeye]

Uhm WRONG!

Originally posted by Greg98


Don't forget the war of 1812, you guys lost that one too. And don't try and debate that one, you tried to take over our country and failed, that is a loss. End of story

Uhm you are wrong. The War of 1812 was mainly over the US demand for British respect of our Sovereignty! The straw that broke the camel's back was thye British Practice of Impressement. They would force American sailors into service on their ships. This was almost the War of 1810 after the British attacked the USS CHesapeake.

The Invasion of Canada was a by-product, not goal of the war. There were wins and losses by both sides. The British burning parts of DC was a tremendous loss for the US. However, we were not defeated. We forced the British out and carried on the fight. The war ended as much as it started, in a stalemate. The difference being that the War of 1812 cemented our independence around the world, brought the US Navy to promenince and ended the British boarding of American vessels and "kidnapping American Sailors". By the way, as communication was slow back then, the Battle of New Orleans was fought one month after the Treaty of Ghent was signed. In it General Andrew Jackson with 5,000 troops (Militia, Indians, and African-Americans) soundly defeated Maj. Gen Packenham's 14,450 man force(Composed of West Indian troops, and the British Elite Black and Whites). While many smaller skirmishes were fought, Jan 8th was the climax. Over 2000 British were killed with American losses of 71 to contrast. Maj. Gen. Pakenham was among the dead. It was a total victory agains Britan's finest troops.

So as the US achieved their goal of stopping the practice of impressment and true recognition of their country by the Brits, although a statlemate, we got what we wanted. Again, Canada was an afterthought, not a goal!

[steveg]

actually it was a goal

[1stdeadeye]

No it wasn't!

Originally posted by steveg
actually it was a goal

Not again! No, it was a byproduct of the war, not the goal. The War of 1812 was not about conquest, but American Sovereignty. If we look at it your way, Britainia definitely lost the war, because they did not reconquer the United States. Since Britan lost, the US must have won!

Canada was invaded by an ambitious Genreal named Hull. He was repulsed. Detriot was captured, but not held. Canada was not the main battlefield for the War of 1812. Sorry Canucks, you were the side show. The main battles were fought on American soil and in American territorial waters. Each side came away from the war claiming victory, but the US cemented their existence.

*Cheap Shot at Canadians coming up*

Hey the United States of America took our Freedom, we did not wait and hope that some far off empire would give it to us!

So nanny nanny boo boo!

[steveg]

huh?
not a cheapshot, just one based on prejudice
and, an unquestioned belief in your own myths and
propaganda.
NO-ONE "gave" us our "freedom" (as if you people were
the only free people on earth, what a laugh)
we made a country for ourselves as we like it, without
having to kill anyone.
the fact that we didn't have any wars of independence
or especially awful, civil wars is something that
we are pleased about.


and according to OUR history there were several attempts
(of US invasion)
unrelated, before and after your independance.

but no doubt I'm wrong so I'll say no more

[Johnny_Reb]

Where exactly do you hear about these "attempts"? In 1812 Canada was only a battlefield a few times because Britain held it. So where are you reading that the US made several attempts to take in canada.

[Greg98]

your thoughts on whether it was a primary goal or not is beside the point....you tried to invade our country and we held our ground. I've also always been a bit curious as to when we consider someone in our country a citizen. I mean I know their were British regulars, but there was also Canadian Militia and I believe Tecumseh and his formidable force of Native Canadians. Yes the militia came from england, but when are they considered Canadian? Everyone in America was from britain early on your eastern seaboard, yet somehow they were always American. I hope somebody understands that rambling of mine. The war of 1812 was simply about America finding a ground on which to fight the british, they couldn't sail over there, so they simply went North. Invasion and annexation was a goal, I believe it was the american concept of manifest destiny.

"Detriot was captured, but not held" 1stDeadeye

Actually, IIRC, we never intended to hold Detroit. Our foray down the east coast was simply revenge for when Americans burned down much of York (now Toronto), so we went down into detroit, burned down some buildings, then headed down to washington and burned down the white house thats why you have that pretty new one. We (or britain, however you wish to look at it) did not lose the war. your goal was to take the country over, we stopped you, thats a victory right there. yes they suffered defeat at new orleans (a quirk of history, rather strange circumstances!) and they also took a severe loss in a sea battle when they were led by a man who underestimated the American navy and basically walk into a slaughterhouse. I don't recall his name, I've got too much history stuff in my head, lol. but if you wish to continue debating, please do, hopefully we both can learn some more :)

and please, no cheap shots on Canada. I know it's hard for some Americans to comprehend, but we can be extremely proud of our country as well.


Oh, I see someone wanted to know about other attempts on Canada, and I believe the Fenian raids was another attack, not so much an invasion. About 10,000 Irish Americans tried to strike at Canadian cities and such to try and draw British troops away from Ireland, so they could retake their homeland. It was unsuccesful, obviously

[Sooky]

Those darn drunken Fenians!

There had also been much interest in annexing the North West, when Canada still consisted of Ontario, Quebec, NB, and NS. Heck, fear of the USA partly drove Canada to expand west. Louis Riel even tried to stir up the USA to annex the west during the Red River Rebellion. One of the Metis even recruited some Fenians to assist in the rebellion. There were also several Americans in now western Canada working to bring the area under US control.