Michael Moore is being sued!

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
The question evolved into is it effective to have a gun on an airplane. I simply said that I do not for the risk out weigh the possible gains IMO. I then asked people to see if there are other possible ways in which you can handle this situation without the dangers of having a gun or any other type of weapon on the plane. I could have posted my opinions, but it would have done nothing, for forcing you to think of them on your own, leads you to think about the question more then me just reciting to you. It is a strategy of teaching that is ages old. You do not tell your students what to believe, you do not give them new ideas, your let them discover their own ideas based on the information present at that time. That way they are truly educated in that area. (now waiting for the customary insults thrown towards my direction)

In other words, "I'm an zealot that doesn't have any ideas of my own, but I kow yours is bad"

Thanx, we got that.




CB, you are so foolish my brain is leaking blood onto my carpet right now.

In the 9/11 example the terrorists bolted towards the cockpit and never dealt with the cabin crew or passengers. In that example they are running away from the Marshal, with their backs to him when he starts shooting. He kills "x" of them. Now the rest have a decision to make. Continue running at the cockpit (now with reinforced doors) and allow the marshal to continue shooting you in the back, or double back and get shot in the face. That's how it would go down. Not your magical teleporting terrorists that can just pop around the cabin like nightcrawler defeating an armed Marshal simply by existing.


I will turn to the experts who say that shots fired together in side of a plane and lead to a bigger hole put in the side then just the one bullet hole that many people like you are saying.

So will we.

SHOW US THE LINK!

DO IT, DO IT NOW!

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
Again read my response to why I will not tell you. One of my ideas was the rapid decompressing of the plane, or someway in which to make the passengers fall asleep with the lowest level of harm to their body.

Didn't Russia kill like 100 people trying that?

The idea of a hole in the plane is rather a moot point. For I am not saying that bullet holes in the side of the plane will cause a vacuum and suck everything out all the time. I said that a few bullet holes in the side of an airplane can lead to a bigger hole then the one bullet hole people like to say. That if that hole gets big enough (talking about man size), can lead to a rapid decompressing and the sucking out of contents of the plane But the likelihood of that happening is beyond the boundaries of likely to happen.

Yeah Yeah, and if Santa Claus gets drunk and accidently flys into a turbine the whole plane will plummet to earth, terrorists or now.

What's your point?

[-Carnifex-]

Army is it possible to have three or four shots in close proximity (lets say within a four in circle) create a large hole?

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy


What's better then an armed professional for stopping the terrorists?

WHAT?

You know, for all this nonsense about the taching that you keep sputtering I'm reminded of one thing.

My teachers gave me the answers when we didn't know what they were looking for. But since you don't have any you keep up this charade. Just stop it dude, you embarrass youself.

[Konigballer]

let collegeboy post. If we keep posting he will only probably respond to one person's post instead of adressing everyones. We dont want him to dodge us.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
If the passengers can be counted on taking down the terrorist on their own then there would be no need for an air marshal or any other alternative actions.

Well, if its all the same to you, I'd like to take MORE precautions, not less.

I said to the response of someone getting a 50 Caliber on the plane. I said that more then likely the gun would be an ak47 or 76 which can be made down to 10 inches or so.

Does anyone remember the last time a half dozen terrorists armed with machine guns got on an American flight?

I don't. Well, not counting Wesley Snipes movies that is,

Face it davidb, an armored air marshal is a bad idea. No, I am not saying that if you are thinking you would come to my ideas, I said that if you were thinking you were weigh both sides and not just break out in insults. From your post, even though I disagree with it, and think it is totally off, you show you are at least thinking.

Based on what factual ecidence is it a bad idea? Link please.

[Collegeboy]

There are some at my Army Base.

ak74 (not 76) shorty with its barrel removed and the stock folded is right at 10.5 inches long.

So you are saying that through your experience and conferences attended that bullets that are fired in a close proximity to each other on the outer shell of the plane will not cause a hole bigger then the size of the bullet? Just making sure for I am not sure if you are saying that I am arguing that those bullet holes will bring down the plane or not. For I am not.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
ak74 (not 76) shorty with its barrel removed and the stock folded is right at 10.5 inches long.

AK 74

Closer to three feet, but thanx for trying

So you are saying that through your experience and conferences attended that bullets that are fired in a close proximity to each other on the outer shell of the plane will not cause a hole bigger then the size of the bullet? Just making sure for I am not sure if you are saying that I am arguing that those bullet holes will bring down the plane or not. For I am not.

CB, none of us know what you're saying anymore. You chnge everytime you say something and then you deny the last thing you said.

[Collegeboy]

Talk about people posting in rapid progression.

I like to take more precautions too, that is why I do not agree with an armed air marshal. The terrorist of 911 knew that the cockpit door would not be locked or protected in anyway. That is why they went to the cockpit. If they now there is an armed air marshal on board the terrorist are going to do everything in their power to find out who, their whole actions are going be to find out this person and disarm them of their gun.

If you have three guys running behind each other down one isle, you will be only able to get the first guy with certainty.

Some people are thinking of other ways, so I am doing something.

Russia did not use the decompressing of the cabin, they used a gas.

No Albinonewt, your name calling will get you nowhere. I am not a zealot and I have my own ideas.

[Collegeboy]

Try again albinonewt.

http://members.lycos.nl/phoenixis/ak74u.htm

490 - 210 = 280 mm which according to the one I used on this one is 11 inchs.

[Konigballer]

Collegeboy you are WRONG...

AK-74, THERE NEVER WAS A 76, is 27inches without the stock. Read: 27inches without the stock or with the optional folding stock folded. This information can be attained online, thank you albinonewt, or in books. I got it from
The World's Great Small
Arms by Craig Phillip on
pg. 38......I dont know how you got your info

Also, your original comment, wich has been quaoted by several people, never said anything about the AK measuring 10inches "with the barrel removed". Nice way to rewrite yourself buddy. I dont think you have the slightest idea what an AK-74 even looks like and you might be confusing it with much smaller machine pistols. Sorry, hit the books or the firing range Collegeboy, then come back and try to participate in this debate.

[billybob_81067]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
So you are saying that through your experience and conferences attended that bullets that are fired in a close proximity to each other on the outer shell of the plane will not cause a hole bigger then the size of the bullet?

So basically what you're trying to prove is that bullets fired in close proximity make a bigger hole than just a single bullet will?

No... Really? Wish I'd have thought of that! Maybe I would have won the Nobel Prize with that kind of scientifically mind-boggling great information.

NO KIDDING! Just the same as drilling 3 holes right next to each other makes a hole that is bigger than the original drill bit...

Wow I bow down before you Mr. Collegeboy Genius of the World! <-- Hint: that is SARCASM!

[Konigballer]

Thats an AKSU-74 Collegeboy, not an AK-74, try and get something right.

It measures a little over 19inches, or 490mm. If you have a 24in double sided ruler you will see that a little over 19inches corresponds with the little "49" on the opposite side. "49", as in 490mm.....or a little over 19inches. Wow, your in college?

[Army]

Yes CB, a group of bullets, in close association, will make a group of holes in the fuselage...happy now that I answered such a DUHHH statement? Just to help you make something else up; the air compressor will easily overcome those holes...WITH NO RAPID, OR EVEN NOTICEABLE, DECOMPRESSION! NOBODY IS GOING TO BE SUCKED OUT THE GROUP OF HOLES! THE GROUP OF HOLES WILL NOT MAGICALLY GROW BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS! What you WILL have....is a group of holes in the fuselage.

I wonder how YOU were able to take such detailed measurements of any AK rifle in this armory. Are you still in Moscow?

Do you honestly believe the Cop is sitting in the specially labled "Air Marshall" seat. I would bet (and win), that in a passenger list of only 5 people, you would not be able to point out the armed man. How are any baddies going to know? Marshalls never take the same flight, never do the same routine, won't visit any city more than twice in one month. But you are right, the 9/11 baddies had NO restriction of ANY sort on their way to the cockpit, including the attendants who's throat they slit getting there. Only the interferrence of pissed off travelers, stopped whatever mayhem that last flight was destined for....but they all still died, because NOBODY had any training in that sort of situation.

Take 9/11 baddies with box cutters, and place a pissed off Air Marshall with a very familiar weapon in his hands in their way......guess who wins?

Still waiting for your better way....waiting....waiting...

Oh yeah, I'm seriously curious how you plan on monitoring the health of any elderly persons, asthmatics, infants and toddlers, and anyone under certain medications while you suffocate them? How do you plan to stop the AUTOMATIC, NO BY-PASS circuits from dropping the breathing apparatus? How do you keep the Attendants from passing out too? Who is going to stop the drink cart from rolling madly down the aisle when the aircraft AUTOMATICALLY dives to a lower altitude?

Get real CB, you have no clue, NONE, on how to best stop a terr on an aircraft....and neither does Michael Moore. I've shown you my credentials, training, and background. You have only shown blow-hard ignorance and stupidity.

[Army]

Oh, now I see what you are asking about the bullets! You want to know if Hollywood got it right!

OK....NO DIMWIT, THE EXIT HOLES WILL BE ONLY SLIGHTLY LARGER THAN THE CALIBER THAT MADE THEM, DUE TO SOME SLIGHT STRETCHING OF THE ALUMINUM. THEY WILL NOT BE GREAT BIG SMOKING HOLES LIKE IN THE MOVIES.

I just wanted to make sure you got that, since your grasp of the obvious is sorely lacking.