Bush does it again....

[Rooster]

"Churches, and most religions, are really a form of socialism. And the bible is quite clear in a number of places that those with riches should give some away to the less fortunate so that they do not have too much and the less fortunate do not have too little. They collect money and organise local labour to help the needy. Individual Church groups are often not enough to support certain projects, so they organise amongst themselves.

All very much the exact same thing as government support of the less needy. Only that churches have the advantage of being more lenient with the payment of their taxes (tith or donation), but government has the advantage of a larger base.

Sometimes the hatred of government programs is really a form of racism. It's fine if good respectable white members of the church get help, but let's not help them OTHERS."

It might be discrimination, but its deffinately not racism. Socialist in its function or not, membership in a church is a personal choice. The decision to give money to the church or to donate time is a personal choice. Having my money stolen so it can be redistributed to people who do not deserve it is not a choice. That is the crux of the problem. Charity is a personal gift, it should not be mandated by the government.

[NoForts4Me]

Sometimes the hatred of government programs is really a form of racism. It's fine if good respectable white members of the church get help, but let's not help them OTHERS.

Interesting...it seems by your statement that you assume only white people go to church...and not blacks or hispanics or whaterver. Who's being "racist?"

Also, it is interesting that "the hatred" of programs that hold minorities in their economic positions is considered by you to be a form of racism, when the programs themselves are designed to keep a group of people dependent on the government, not to help them break free. It also seems you assume that minorities are the only ones using the programs, if opposition to them is racist. Hmmm, again, who is being "racist?"

Anytime someone throws the race card into an argument, they usually don't have one. BTW, I am not calling you a racist, I'm just using your term, and I just think your assumptions about churches and government programs are wrong.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Sometimes the hatred of government programs is really a form of racism.

Oh ho hooooo here we go...

Let's talk about the gubment programs shall we?

Like Affirmative action for instance?

hey guess what Mr. Minority, we don't think you're smart enough or capable enough on your own to succeed in life.

We're going to make you use this here Gubment Playing Ground Leveling Program to get into jobs and school.

But that's not being racist, now is it Mr. I Just Wanna Help You Poor Poor Minority Man/Woman?

God forfend, if we as a society ask those that would like to gain from that same society, to earn their own way.

Ohhhhhh noooooooooo can't have that. Why that's that's....

RACIST!

[SlartyBartFast]

FOL:
You know, I'm in complete agreement that affirmative action is crap. Then there's its evil twin pay equity.

Elimination of racism/sexism/prejudice is a great ideal. However reverse racism or the perversion of market forces on pay scales is NOT the way to go.

NoForts4Me:
You're right. Racism works all ways.

As for the rest, you like the others are reading far more into my position than I have divulged on AO. The hatred and prejudice inherrent in the use of the word liberal on this board is ascribing far more to my position than I would ever support.

But, you all seem far to confident to simply label someone and then insult and demean instead of really see where they stand on an issue or to re-examine your own positions.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
The hatred and racism inherrent in the use of the word liberal on this board is ascribing far more to my position than I would ever support.

Ha I knew it. You are confirming my suspicions that liberals are of another race! Not Homo Sapien, but Homo Dumbarse

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Ha I knew it. You are confirming my suspicions that liberals are of another race! Not Homo Sapien, but Homo Dumbarse

Conservative = Homo Half-wit?

Jeez, I meant prejudice ...



Thank you for prooving yet again the pea-brained level at which discussion on political issues decends.

If everything ascribed to ALL liberal by the conservative think-nots on this board were true then it would be equally true to equate all conservatives with any totalitarian fascist leader of choice.

Oh, but wait. I forgot that the conservative dinks on this board get all bent out of shape when people make generalisations about THEM.

The political thinkers don't insult whole segments of the population with generalisations. But, it's something I find difficult to avoid with the level of thoughtless stupidity expressed in many of the anti- threads on AO.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Conservative = Homo Half-wit?

Jeez, I meant prejudice ...

Then the real argument should be do you want to be a half-wit or dumb-arse? Decisions decisions!

[Miscue]

Besides getting yourself a damn job, every healthy person can get free school and healthcare by joining the military. If you want to get recruited, they'll have you sign the line in a heartbeat.

And in a sense, the people are still paying for your healthcare but you are giving back something in return.

I am all for this if you give something substantial back to the people who pay for your benefits.

I should not be financially responsible for your poor decisions, and you have no ethical right to take what I have earned through hard work - particularly because there are other options available like the military, and yes there are jobs out there thay you can get if you try hard enough... that you are not taking advantage of.

The day that every business has a sign that says they are not hiring - and quit asking - reminiscent of the Great Depression, is a day when such social programs are justifiable as it would be in the interests of the nation. Until then, get off your *** and quit asking for a free lunch.

I mean, I know someone who is literally classified as mentally retarded who works two jobs and takes care of herself - earning her own healthcare. When I see stuff like this, I don't see what excuse you could possibly have besides laziness when your brain and body work fine.

Earn your keep.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by Miscue
Besides getting yourself a damn job, every healthy person can get free school and healthcare by joining the military. If you want to get recruited, they'll have you sign the line in a heartbeat.

Interesting conundrum. You can get free healthcare if you join the military, but you have to be in top health to join.

Then, most good employment needs you to be in good health or they can't hire you because the group plan won't accept you, and the jobs that might accept you pay a STUPID minimum wage that's impossible to live on let alone pay for health insurance.

Not every ill comes from bad decisions.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


Interesting conundrum. You can get free healthcare if you join the military, but you have to be in top health to join.

How many people at the age of 17-18 do you think cannot qualify for the military? It's not that hard.

Also, you can do so such that when you do get older you will have healthcare because you made a smart investment of your time.

A-C-C-O-U-N-T-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y

You see... what you are talking about is a small % that is the exception... yet a social policy that covers 100% of the people. Blatant waste of resources. A compromise that helps this small %, I can understand.

Not every ill comes from bad decisions.

Yes or no: Does your bad luck mean you can take my money?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue
The day that every business has a sign that says they are not hiring - and quit asking - reminiscent of the Great Depression, is a day when such social programs are justifiable as it would be in the interests of the nation. Until then, get off your *** and quit asking for a free lunch.

I mean, I know someone who is literally classified as mentally retarded who works two jobs and takes care of herself - earning her own healthcare. When I see stuff like this, I don't see what excuse you could possibly have besides laziness when your brain and body work fine.

Earn your keep.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by shartley

It's not that they can't find jobs, it's that they cannot find jobs that they want.

I'm talking about people with disabilities working long hours at two jobs like Pizza Hut, and other similar jobs - supporting themselves sufficiently but without luxuries. Jealous?

Perhaps the people who drop in and out of jobs at will, are doing something better than those who aren't?

I got my public education. I paid for college with federal loans, and working. Yeah, I lived at home but you can't kill me for that. I paid for my transportation. I graduate. I get job. Nothing was given to me. What is everyone else's excuse?

You're right, I won't know how hard it is because I was smart enough to avoid dealing with that. I've invested my time wisely to make myself ready for a career since I was a teenager... while many waste time.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Miscue


It's not that they can't find jobs, it's that they cannot find jobs that they want.

I'm talking about people with disabilities working long hours at two jobs like Pizza Hut, and other similar jobs - supporting themselves sufficiently but without luxuries. Jealous?

Perhaps the people who drop in and out of jobs at will, are doing something better than those who aren't?



I got my public education. I paid for college with federal loans, and working. Yeah, I lived at home but you can't kill me for that. I paid for my transportation. I graduate. I get job. Nothing was given to me. What is everyone else's excuse?

You're right, I won't know how hard it is because I was smart enough to avoid dealing with that. I've invested my time wisely to make myself ready for a career since I was a teenager... while many waste time.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley

This can happen to anyone. You are mid level management in a company and layoffs happen. Everyone knows that it can be really hard to get hired again at a similar position.

Do I know of a solution to it? No. BUT again it can happen to anyone. That is why I get upset when I see people say, "Yeah, they just don't want to work...or...people are only looking for a free ride...or...if you are poor it means you just aren't willing to work hard/stupid/unmotivated/unambitious."

To pretend the circumstances are perfect is ridiculous. To say to a family that can't afford health care, "Why don't you get a better job?" adds insult to injury.

I'm not even saying that we should have a different healthcare system. I'm just saying we better think about helping each other out more than just looking at our own pocket book in our current situation. Situations change! Anyone who doesn't believe that is arrogant or stupid....

[Rooster]

I refuse to beleive that a person can not find work if they truely want it. Farmers where I grew up were begging people to jerk sweet corn for them. One even went so far as to drive up to the capital city and pick up bums to use as labor. He couldn't get more than two. I have two subcontractors that can't find enough english speaking labor (we contractualy stipulate that every crew on one of our jobs must have one guy speaking english). It horrible work, but its work, and it can be found.

True if someone weighs four hundred pounds, that rules out the military and alot of other things. But if you don't have money to eat, you won't have to worry about being fat for too long. Ultimately your problems arn't my problems, and you have to take responsibility for them, fair or not.

My father wen't through the same thing. For three years he didn't make a dime, except for what he made doing odd jobs. We were told not to get sick for three years. My mother made 7 dollars an hour with a masters degree in high school education working for head start, where she found out that most of the parents she visited had new clothes, cable, big screen T.V.s, and the kind of stuff we only dreamed about.

I've been there. The one thing it taught me was that most of the people on public assistance are scum. The second thing it taught me is that life is unfair, how you deal with it is what determines your worth as a human being. The last thing it taught me is that everything I have is becuase I earned it, and I'll be damned if anyone is going to take whats mine without permision. If the government wants my money to pay some scumbag with 15 kids to sit on her butt all day, then the government can send that scum to clean my office and take out my trash. I deserve some work done for me for that fee.