The day the terrorists won....

[SlartyBartFast]

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SlartyBartFast


No that actually started after that time period when he was alienated from the west for his irratic maniacal behaviour.

The funny thing is that I,and others far more liberal than I, would view this convenient ignorance to dictators and corrupt regimes as appeasement of the worst sort. And that happens on conservative watches as much as it does on liberal ones. You could even argue that liberals are far less likely to appease in such circumstances as "liberals" would put human rights abuses before trade.

It's not about whether appeasement or conflict are right or wrong. It's about WHEN appeasement is appropriate and WHEN armed conflict is appropriate. Also a HUGE part of the equation is what can be done so the option is NEITHER appeasement NOR conflict.

Correct. We mostly disagree now wether it was timely to do what we did. Most of us think it was PAST time to do it. In the past you seem to have indecated there would be NO time which was the right time.

Lifting of unbearable sanctions and relinquishment of key seized territories from WW1 would have avoided the rise to power of the National Socialist Party in Germany in the 30's for example.

No one really can say for certain. That totaly discounts the inherent nature of the people of Germany to feel aloof and superior. An inherent thing in that culture that somewhat persists even today. Who can say. Is it a cause or is it an excuse?

Identifying, accepting, and dealing with legitimate claims and grievances however is a difficult and complex process that rarely satisfies every party. But accepting such compromises is the ONLY way you'll get long and lasting peace. Unfortunately the most difficult part is to get the participants to get rid of useless polarized words that serve little purpose than to delegitimise each others viewpoint in debate. Such words include conservative, liberal, appeasement, imperialist, anything dogmatic, the list is long ...

Now that the war in Iraq has happened the most pressing issue is to get the population back to the point of having hope in the future and confidence in their national structure and institutions. Without that, the terrorist leaders will continue to operate and recruit.

Agreed. And thats what we are about. But one must remember that there are people that used to be in favor that are displaced and don't want peace for the sake of their people. They want their power back. And will do anything to get it. Including killing thier own people. We can try and appease all day long but when someones sworn duty in life is to kill you no matter what view you have towords them, because you are of a certain race (American) then you not going to reason with that sort of logic. Your going to kill or be killed. I suspect if you yourself went over there and started preaching to them your tolerance stances and concerns they would slit your throat just as quick as mine. And the headlines would say "American Killed..." and no mention of the fact you were against the use of force... none whats so ever, When someone wants to kill you if he gets a chance its not paranoia. Its real. As dirty as it may be I am not going to let them take a life of my own or my family even if I have to ante up some more money and get a gun and do it myself. Appeasement is what I seek... safety and life is what I will kill for.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by cphilip

No one really can say for certain. That totaly discounts the inherent nature of the people of Germany to feel aloof and superior. An inherent thing in that culture that somewhat persists even today. Who can say. Is it a cause or is it an excuse?

Are you listening to yourself? Inherent nature of the people of Germany? That attitude was EXACTLY what led to WWII. It was Germany's fault. They should have to pay ALL REPARATIONS.

Now the Romans managed to solve the problem of having repeated wars with Carthage. They decided that since they were 'inherent' enemies with Carthage they would declare a third punic war, go in and destroy them. And for good measure salt their fields to make sure no culture could flourish there again. End of problem...not very civilized, however.....

[SlartyBartFast]

Correct. We mostly disagree now wether it was timely to do what we did. Most of us think it was PAST time to do it. In the past you seem to have indecated there would be NO time which was the right time.

Well, most are saying there is never a right time to act unilaterally.

No one really can say for certain. That totaly discounts the inherent nature of the people of Germany to feel aloof and superior. An inherent thing in that culture that somewhat persists even today. Who can say. Is it a cause or is it an excuse?

Germany saw itself as an equal of Britain and France and was insulted to be inferior. After Britain stoped collecting war reparations, the German view of Britain was neutral to positive. Had Britain not entered the war against Germany, Hitler had wanted to form an aliance.

It's easy to blame the stereotype. The reality is that Germany was downtrodden and oppressed (and in the mind of many Germans insulted) by the war reparations they were forced to pay.

[aaron_mag]

You know here is something out of left field....

I loved Lord of the Rings, both the books and the movies. But I remember sitting in the theatre wondering what kind of message it throws out there.

I mean you have the orcs. Their evil. Kill them, slay them, cheer as thousand of them fall before the brave charge of the Riders of Rohirrim. It is a nice fantasy....

But we don't have such cut and dry stuff in our world. The Germans were on the wrong side of WWII. There is no doubt about that. They had horrible death camps. The Japanese were guilty of horrible attrocities against Allied POWs and against indigenous people like my grandfather (asian). To this day he still HATES Japanese with a passion (got pissed when I decided to take Japanese in college).

Yet they are were not 'orcs' and people can do bad things in ANY country. So to say they are 'inherently' anything is to be 'inherently' arrogant on our part....

Like I said...out of left field. Sorry.....

EDIT:

My point is that our first instinct is to make the other side out as different from us. Basically inhuman. "Of course they do bad things. They are inherently bad and different from us. They only understand one language, that of force...."

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
My point is that our first instinct is to make the other side out as different from us. Basically inhuman. "Of course they do bad things. They are inherently bad and different from us. They only understand one language, that of force...."

[shartley]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
You know here is something out of left field....

I loved Lord of the Rings, both the books and the movies. But I remember sitting in the theatre wondering what kind of message it throws out there.

I mean you have the orcs. Their evil. Kill them, slay them, cheer as thousand of them fall before the brave charge of the Riders of Rohirrim. It is a nice fantasy....

But we don't have such cut and dry stuff in our world. The Germans were on the wrong side of WWII. There is no doubt about that. They had horrible death camps. The Japanese were guilty of horrible attrocities against Allied POWs and against indigenous people like my grandfather (asian). To this day he still HATES Japanese with a passion (got pissed when I decided to take Japanese in college).

Yet they are were not 'orcs' and people can do bad things in ANY country. So to say they are 'inherently' anything is to be 'inherently' arrogant on our part....

Like I said...out of left field. Sorry.....

EDIT:

My point is that our first instinct is to make the other side out as different from us. Basically inhuman. "Of course they do bad things. They are inherently bad and different from us. They only understand one language, that of force...."

[aaron_mag]

A good documentary that showed recently is 'The Fog of War'.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/fogofwar/

About Robert McNamara historical viewpoints. It is, by the way, about the democrats getting us in an unpopular war. He also has a message about acting unilaterally.

Not sci-fi...but very good documentary.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by shartley

No, the west is not taking on the role of Germany or Japan in WW2. We may however be creating similar conditions that saw the rise of the third reich.

Those and other enemies did NOT demonise themselves. Their leadership demonised themselves.

Destroy the likes of Bin Laden and the Al-Quida leadership. But make sure that the average arab, afgani, or iraqi is helped out of any situation that would make them fall victim to following Al-Quida in the first place.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley

Definetly wouldn't argue that point with you. And you bring up good points. If one side or the other (in what has turned out to be the classic debate on AO) had all the answers...well it wouldn't be the classic debate would it.

And I definetly don't want to fall into the same trap where we demonize one side or the other on this debate. Where I start saying, "Shartley is evil. He is 'inherently' different than me and can't see reason'. I'll confess that I sometimes get sort of passionate and come close to this attitude!

But I will be honest and say that you guys bring up some good points as well (just slightly less good than mine... )

-Later

[cphilip]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
No, the west is not taking on the role of Germany or Japan in WW2. We may however be creating similar conditions that saw the rise of the third reich.

The newest "Third Riech" has risen. In the form of Muslim Extremists. And its time we all realized it.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


(just slightly less good than mine... )

-Later

Oh man... your gonna get whooped with the shartley edition wet towel...

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by cphilip


The newest "Third Riech" has risen. In the form of Muslim Extremists. And its time we all realized it.

Agreed what we do HAS been provoked. You fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of people your gonna have to face repercussions.

What they do is based on the ideological demonization of western culture. We are the "evil west"

That is the diffrence...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by cphilip
The newest "Third Riech" has risen. In the form of Muslim Extremists. And its time we all realized it.

And if you understand that you understand what needs to be done. Learn from the lessons of the past:

Crush the leadership but lavish the population and help them rebuild. Leads to lasting peace. WW2

Crush the leadership and make the population at large pay. Leads to the emergence of something nasty. WW1

The argument of whether to fight or not gets clouded over the existence of WMD and whether Saddam was in any way connected to those planes on 9/11.

Originally posted by Butterfingers
Agreed what we do HAS been provoked. You fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of people your gonna have to face repercussions.
What they do is based on the ideological demonization of western culture. We are the "evil west"
That is the diffrence...

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Correct. We mostly disagree now wether it was timely to do what we did. Most of us think it was PAST time to do it. In the past you seem to have indecated there would be NO time which was the right time.

Well, most are saying there is never a right time to act unilaterally.

Oh here we go with the Unilateral BS again. Hey, go ask the people in Madrid if they thought the US was acting Unilaterally.