Ethanol: The future is now.

[hitech]

Cute...

I'm trying to say that this is NOT going to take over the auto fuel market. Prior to finding this I had never seen a viable method for storing hydrogen. THAT, as far as I was concerned, killed the idea of using hydrogen. Now, that has been solved...



Edit: Added the NOT. That is what I meant, sorry for the typo...

[slade]

i just found that about a week ago. i think i'll have to use it on my upcoming physics test.

[SlartyBartFast]

But, as I've already said, it is NOT CURRENTLY ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE.

And discussing infeasible technology and wasting resources pursuing them while feasible and currently attainable alternatives exist is irresponsible.

But I still believe it is the future. It is the purest burning element.

Except that it doesn't exist in its pure form and has to be created.

Hydrogen will only be viable once clean, cheap, and abundant electricity is achieved. Wasting time and energy on cars before researching the electricity is putting the cart before the horse.

It my belief however, that once clean, cheap, and abundant electricity is achieved hydrogen technologies will be irrelevant. There are already electric cars with good range. Why be inefficient and create hydrogen?

[hitech]

And discussing infeasible technology and wasting resources pursuing them while feasible and currently attainable alternatives exist is irresponsible.

If we did that we would never progress. Most truely new ideas are not cost effictive at first.

Hydrogen will only be viable once clean, cheap, and abundant electricity is achieved. Wasting time and energy on cars before researching the electricity is putting the cart before the horse.

Persoanl solar power is avaiable that is almost cost effictive. That's getting close.

It my belief however, that once clean, cheap, and abundant electricity is achieved hydrogen technologies will be irrelevant. There are already electric cars with good range. Why be inefficient and create hydrogen?

Because electric storage systems suck.

[slade]

Cute...

I'm trying to say that this is going to take over the auto fuel market. Prior to finding this I had never seen a viable method for storing hydrogen. THAT, as far as I was concerned, killed the idea of using hydrogen. Now, that has been solved...

they really dont say enough for you to be able to say whether it is a viable method or not. given the detail they supply and the manner in which its written, it seems like just hype.

[hitech]

The storage tanks are, I believe, a major accomplishment. Lots of people have tried to safely store hydrogen. There are even hydrogen vehicles in use on public roads (see earlier posts) that bacically use a big HPA tank for storage. These new tanks are FAR SAFER AND BETTER.

[MANN]

physics or dynamics test?

You should have at least received partial credit. Your answer is correct

[slade]

It my belief however, that once clean, cheap, and abundant electricity is achieved hydrogen technologies will be irrelevant. There are already electric cars with good range. Why be inefficient and create hydrogen?

a battery is a controlled chemical reaction which releases electricity.

hydrogen can be used to release electricity.

therefore, batteries and hydrogen are both potential chemical storage mechanisms for electricity.

many batteries are very heavy and die out, while others are very expensive. a lot of batteries contain hazardous chemicals and are hard to dispose of when they do die out.

but you don't think about that, because battery technology is common place.

with hydrogen the actual chemical isnt hazardous to the environment, and it is used up, releasing water, which can then be reconverted into hydrogen and oxygen through electricity. the only thing that could "wear out" over time is the cell - and cells probably have a rather long life compared to batteries.

also, the fact that the hydrogen is used up in the reaction could be advantageous. you have to recharge batteries, which takes anywhere from minutes to hours. recharging a fuel cell could be like filling up your HPA tank at the paintball field. filling up a hydrogen car could take less time than filling up a tank of gas - what about charging your battery?

batteries and hydrogen can both be used to store electricity, and there are certainly advantages to hydrogen over batteries.

[slade]

The storage tanks are, I believe, a major accomplishment. Lots of people have tried to safely store hydrogen. There are even hydrogen vehicles in use on public roads (see earlier posts) that bacically use a big HPA tank for storage. These new tanks are FAR SAFER AND BETTER.

mind linking me to whatever i missed on that site? i didnt see any remotely convincing technical details, only "it has a chemical that absorbs hydrogen like water in a sponge".

also, whats with the fear of compressed hydrogen? hydrogen and oxygen have to be properly mixed for combustion to occur - if theres too much or too little hydrogen, nothing will happen. and, manufacturers would (hopefully) properly protect a tank of compressed hydrogen. an accident would have to be fairly catastrophic to release the hydrogen, then a spark would have to occur in the right place at a time when there is a proper mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. i dont see it as being much more hazardous to store than gas.

[hitech]

..whats with the fear of compressed hydrogen? hydrogen and oxygen have to be properly mixed for combustion to occur - if theres too much or too little hydrogen, nothing will happen. I dont see it as being much more hazardous to store than gas.

A hydrogen-air mix between 4 and 75% are flammable, and mixtures between 18 and 59% are explosive.

THAT is why. The range is HUGE. Look it up for gasoline. It's a WAY, WAY smaller range.

[slade]

THAT is why. The range is HUGE. Look it up for gasoline. It's a WAY, WAY smaller range.

hmm, it must have been C2H2 i was thinking of that has a much smaller range.

[hitech]

hmm, it must have been C2H2 i was thinking of that has a much smaller range.

It seems that binding carbon to hydrogen greatly narrows the flammable range.

[SlartyBartFast]

mind linking me to whatever i missed on that site? i didnt see any remotely convincing technical details, only "it has a chemical that absorbs hydrogen like water in a sponge".

Just Google "hydrogen metal hydride". You'll find info and products.

LiPoly batteries are getting to energy densities that make hydrogen and fuel cells unneeded. Hydrogen and ICE engines is wasted development IMO.

It is a multiple variable formula. Required range, performance, charge/fill time, energy efficiency, infrastructure.

But between infrastructure and the energy production requirements, I don't see hydrogen as a promising avenue. Given the hype though, it's likely to be pushed through regardless of whether it's the best (and sustainable) choice.

[slade]

LiPoly batteries are getting to energy densities that make hydrogen and fuel cells unneeded. Hydrogen and ICE engines is wasted development IMO.

It is a multiple variable formula. Required range, performance, charge/fill time, energy efficiency, infrastructure.

But between infrastructure and the energy production requirements, I don't see hydrogen as a promising avenue. Given the hype though, it's likely to be pushed through regardless of whether it's the best (and sustainable) choice.

true, batteries are getting better, and somewhat cheaper. but they are still very expensive, especially for a vehicular application, and will need to be replaced at some point. why stop research into hydrogen when its just starting? remember, electric cars existed around the time internal combustion engine vehicles existed - but battery technology wasn't good enough at the time for it to be a viable option. now you're arguing that battery technology has advanced to the point where it is the best option.

I agree that combusting hydrogen isn't the best idea. that site is just marketing it as an easy conversion that can be done to current cars, anyway.

[SlartyBartFast]

now you're arguing that battery technology has advanced to the point where it is the best option.

Absolutely. When comparing batteries with hydrogen.

Compared with diesel or gasoline, batteries have limited range and re-charging capability. Back in the day that electric vehicles competed with internal (and external) combustion engine vehicles fuel was also more readily available than electricity as well as being quicker to refill.

But, compared to hydrogen, batteries have a similar range, their less complex to use, and electricity is omnipresent.

If you're going to convert an ICE vehicle, hydrogen is a stupid choice for the foreseeable future. Unless it's a fleet vehicle or personal that is always refueled in the same place or you have a planned route on which you are certain there is hydrogen available. Besides the environmental aspect that hydrogen probably results in more CO2 emissions than using the original fuel (considering the source of hydrogen and all the inefficiencies involved).