Ethanol: The future is now.

[hitech]

Besides the environmental aspect that hydrogen probably results in more CO2 emissions than using the original fuel (considering the source of hydrogen and all the inefficiencies involved).

You're going to need to back that claim up. Using the system I linked to, how is the CO2 emmissions greater than ANY organic fuel?

[slade]

Absolutely. When comparing batteries with hydrogen.

Compared with diesel or gasoline, batteries have limited range and re-charging capability. Back in the day that electric vehicles competed with internal (and external) combustion engine vehicles fuel was also more readily available than electricity as well as being quicker to refill.

But, compared to hydrogen, batteries have a similar range, their less complex to use, and electricity is omnipresent.

you missed the point; battery technology has been developed for hundreds of years, hydrogen technology is new.

If you're going to convert an ICE vehicle, hydrogen is a stupid choice for the foreseeable future. Unless it's a fleet vehicle or personal that is always refueled in the same place or you have a planned route on which you are certain there is hydrogen available. Besides the environmental aspect that hydrogen probably results in more CO2 emissions than using the original fuel (considering the source of hydrogen and all the inefficiencies involved).

did i say anything about converting an ICE vehicle? no. did i say using hydrogen in an ICE vehicle was a good idea? no. i mentioned the above site; did i ever support the system in that site? no.

You're going to need to back that claim up. Using the system I linked to, how is the CO2 emmissions greater than ANY organic fuel?

he's saying, as is probably true, that that system (the solar panels) produce far less electricity per day than the average person needs to drive a car. to produce the hydrogen, you would need to use electricity from another source. the most common source would be from burning fossil fuels, in which case your setup would be far less practical than just driving an ICE vehicle.

[Triangle]

Thread is too long didn't Read.
Has anyone seen the videos of the guy who powers his car engine with water?

[hitech]

he's saying, as is probably true, that that system (the solar panels) produce far less electricity per day than the average person needs to drive a car.

Based on their claims it would work for my daily commute. I can't say whether their claims are accurate, but for now I'm assuming they are. However, I never claimed their system was pratical. Only that hydrogen is the future, and how far in the future is debatable. My claim of almost no problem emmissions was to back up the future of hydrogen. That said, it may still be enough benefit for use now.

[SlartyBartFast]

you missed the point; battery technology has been developed for hundreds of years, hydrogen technology is new.

Hydrogen transport and storage isn't all that new. IF hydrogen can be stored at higher energy densities than batteries, can be created in economical fashion, TOTAL cost of use and TOTAL environmental impact is considered, and hydrogens pitfalls complexity is less than those for advanced batteries then perhaps hydrogen is better than batteries.

did i say anything about converting an ICE vehicle? no. did i say using hydrogen in an ICE vehicle was a good idea? no. i mentioned the above site; did i ever support the system in that site? no.

I know you disagreed with the site. Don't take general conversation personally. In future I'll try and separate the direct comments and general ones better.

he's saying, as is probably true, that that system (the solar panels) produce far less electricity per day than the average person needs to drive a car. to produce the hydrogen, you would need to use electricity from another source. the most common source would be from burning fossil fuels, in which case your setup would be far less practical than just driving an ICE vehicle.

Exactly.

General discussion: And if you want to invest in something that makes your daily commute less environmentally damaging better to buy a regular hybrid (but really only great if your commute is in city stop and go) and if you want to reduce your fuel use perhaps convert it to a plug-in hybrid.

But, then there's the conundrum. Considering where electricity comes from, electric cars in North America are heavy polluters. Even in an area using clean generation, considering the North American electric grid is tied together, any use of grid electricity is polluting at the American and Canadian average. Because if I use a kW-h of hydropower here, it's a kW-h that can't be used to avoid running one of the dirty generating plants elsewhere.

Elsewhere generating equipment may have an acceptable payback. Though not here with the lowest or second lowest electric rates in North America.

All we have to date is flashy toys for rich I'm-greener-than-you show-offs. And companies either creating hype for government and investment cash or companies simply following the hype and investment generated.

[slade]

Hydrogen transport and storage isn't all that new. IF hydrogen can be stored at higher energy densities than batteries, can be created in economical fashion, TOTAL cost of use and TOTAL environmental impact is considered, and hydrogens pitfalls complexity is less than those for advanced batteries then perhaps hydrogen is better than batteries.

true, transporting hydrogen isnt new, but hydrogen vehicles are. often when new technologies emerge they arent the best; all i'm saying is, don't judge too quickly.

General discussion: And if you want to invest in something that makes your daily commute less environmentally damaging better to buy a regular hybrid (but really only great if your commute is in city stop and go) and if you want to reduce your fuel use perhaps convert it to a plug-in hybrid.

why only city stop and go? i have a 5 minute commute; in the winter i my prius averages 40-45 MPG. driving on the highway to boston or new hampshire, it averages low 50's. my robotics teacher, who has an hour long commute in a mix of driving, averages around 58 MPG.

[SlartyBartFast]

why only city stop and go?

Sorry, add short distance to the good applications of hybrid technology.

Because a Hybrid gains it's fuel economy from recovering braking energy that is normally lost as heat through the brake pads, disks, and drums. In city driving or short distance, a large pecentage of energy consumed is wasted each time the vehicle is stopped.

In long distance driving, most energy is lost to rolling friction and wind resistance. The energy recoverable from braking is a small percentage of the total energy used on the trip.

For proof: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html

[hitech]

For city driving, the automatic Camry gets 24 mpg while the hybrid gets 40 mpg. An increase of 67%.
For highway driving, the automatic Camry gets 33 mpg while the hybrid gets 38 mpg. An increase of 15%.

And the old honda CVCC (I think that's what it's called) gets around 50 mpg on the highway. WAY better than a hybrid.

BTW, My only point in my new OP was that these guys had come up with a new and safe storage method for hydrogen. I don't think ANYONE else has a better storage method for hydrogen.

[slade]

Sorry, add short distance to the good applications of hybrid technology.

Because a Hybrid gains it's fuel economy from recovering braking energy that is normally lost as heat through the brake pads, disks, and drums. In city driving or short distance, a large pecentage of energy consumed is wasted each time the vehicle is stopped.

In long distance driving, most energy is lost to rolling friction and wind resistance. The energy recoverable from braking is a small percentage of the total energy used on the trip.

For proof: http://www.toyota.com/camry/specs.html

all valid points. but the way you spoke made it sound like you were arguing hybrids are only good for city stop and go traffic jams - which they are excellent for, as idling in a line kills efficiency. but as you even pointed out a hybrid vehicle is still more efficient on the highway than a comparable automatic vehicle, although the gain is less significant. what you have to remember is an automatic car's engine is still running when you take your foot off the gas, and it provides some resistance to the vehicle. a hybrid vehicle tries to imitate an automatic; when you take your foot off the gas in a hybrid, the gas engine shuts off and the vehicle decelerates, using the electric motor to charge the battery and provide resistance.

even on the highway there are going to be times when you have to accelerate and decelerate, plus almost anywhere you go you're going to have to drive off the highway for quite a while. a hybrid will be more efficient for almost every driver, its not only for city commuters.

first, that's only looking at pollution, not consumption, which is also important. secondly, that proposal is even more open to criticism and abuse. the main point of the subsidies and investments is to lower the cost of buying a vehicle to make it more appealing; giving away a car will put one car on the road, although the person may just sell it to pay off bills and use their old car, or buy another used car. lowering the cost of new hybrid technology would make hybrids economically comparable to similar vehicles, and might cause, say, 10 people to buy a new hybrid instead of a new automatic, compared to the 1 car that same money would have funded. since 10 cars are being produced, the manufacturers will make more vehicles, and then can lower costs, making hybrids an even more viable option - im sure doc could explain that one well.

giving random people cars seems stupid in comparison. and, its open to more abuse. people could find out where the people giving away cars are stationed and drive by repeatedly, just taking an exit and looping around - wonderful environmental benefit there.

biodiesel right now is a great option, especially homebrews, as the oil is just a waste product from places that use it to cook. ethanol, on the other hand, right now doesnt provide that much of a benefit. as agricultural and chemical technology in manufacturing and distributing ethanol grows, though, it could be a more beneficial technology.

[hitech]

A hybrid will be more efficient for almost every driver, its not only for city commuters.

For my daily commute I could EASILY beat a hybrid with the honda CVCC.

[MicroMiniMe]

For my daily commute I could EASILY beat a hybrid with the honda CVCC.

The discontinued Honda Insights got good highway mileage but the Toyotas are nothing to gasp about. The VW TDIs you can drive like you stole it and get 50+ mpg highway as long as its manual transmission. But the TDIs get killed in city driving down to 30s for MPG.

I drive 58 miles each way and run the state minimum B2 in the winter and B20 the rest of the year.