My new Kimber - first impressions

[Lohman446]

I would guess that aside from law enforcement, security, and of course shop owners, i.e MoeMag, there arent really that many oppurtunities for, or reasons to concealed carry..

When I hire someone I take on a moral responsibility for their safety while at work. Now should someone rob the place and want the money, I couldn't care less, it is after all insured. That being said I also routinely transport healthy amounts of cash and carry it as protection - again not for the cash itself.

Add to that a psycho ex and husband who routinely are involved in domestic violence issues with each other and I am not that often unarmed.

Those are the two strong reasons for carrying. I won't go into the litany of other reasons such as a well armed populace being a deterent to crime, or the simple fact that it is my right to do so as these require more theoretical reasoning.

However, as others have stated there is a need to have an ability to use and protect your firearm. I find the NRA classes, well a good start, to be negilgent in gun retention techniques. I also find most pistol instructors to neglect it, as well as proper techniques to create distance.

One more addition - having a concealed carry permit frees me from the required waiting period to buy a firearm. Many people I know who have them have them for that reason alone.

/Of course I live in a reasonably gun friendly state

[Steelrat]

Hey everyone I realize this has been more of a pros and cons conversation about various pistols, but I'm curious about something.

I grew up around guns, my family has a collection, I own several, even my sister has a few. What kind of professions are the various posters in that require, or necessitate a carried weapon?

I would guess that aside from law enforcement, security, and of course shop owners, i.e MoeMag, there arent really that many oppurtunities for, or reasons to concealed carry.

I understand and agree that anyone who carries a firearm needs to spend enough time with it to develope "muscle memory", but question whether there are that many valid reasons for people to carry anymore.

Please bear in mind that I'm writing this from one of the most gun shy states in the union, in fact I keep all of my guns in another state because of the laws here. I cant think of anyone I know who lives in this state who owns a firearm.

I would think that if a poster was in law enforcement, they might not be inclined to mention it on the forum.

There are states that do allow civilian concealed carry. If you are going to carry it, you might as well train to use it the right way. As for valid reasons, I would think that a person's life, and the life of their friends or family, would be reason enough. Sure, the chances of actually having to use it are small, but there is still a chance. God help you if the day comes when you need it, and it's not there.

[Lohman446]

There are a lot of considerations in allowing a well armed populace. In many areas of the state (including where I am) the average police response time, for reasons outside of the officers control, are dismal. This is not a crack on the police. Its a totally understandable situation considering a heavily dispersed population. In a situation outside of one of the cities one should not expect a response time of less than ten minutes (and just Friday I had a reason to call the police, the response time was noticeably longer). This was a situation where I had every reason to beleive my six year old daughter was in danger of immediate and severe physical harm. Armed or unarmed I was pulling my child and her sister out of that situation, I was glad to be armed (even if it was underarmed). Hence the "need" for a new carry gun.

[geekwarrior]

dumb California gun laws

[SCpoloRicker]

Well, I carry because I work for the CIA. International espionage, and what have you.

/please don't tell anyone

[Lohman446]

EDIT: Also, I see a problem with shooting two types of guns. In a self-defense situation, the MOST important thing is muscle memory. .

I greatly disagree. Its far more important to be as calm as possible, and to have trained enough with whatever weapon that you are familiar with it (granted that falls under muscle memory to a degree) and thinking clearly enough to properly use it. The ability to remain calm enough to think clearly is by far the most important in a bad situation.

[Steelrat]

I greatly disagree. Its far more important to be as calm as possible, and to have trained enough with whatever weapon that you are familiar with it (granted that falls under muscle memory to a degree) and thinking clearly enough to properly use it. The ability to remain calm enough to think clearly is by far the most important in a bad situation.

Wishful thinking. Counting on "nerves of steel" is just going to lead to disaster. Its just human physiology. In almost EVERY case, your motor control will degenrate, you will get tunnel vision, and you will suffer from audible exclusion. I mean, how do you train to be calm in a real engagement? Try running a few stress courses. Those are light years away from the real thing, and yet even there you will see how much stress affects your reactions and perception.

The BEST way to train is to create muscle memory. You want your hand to drop to your holster and draw the weapon automatically, and bring the weapon up in front of you. You also want to be headed towards the closest cover. If you start screwing around with different weapons and holsters, you will screw up your ability to create that muscle memory.

Here is a good anecdote. There was a federal agent who was working on a house one weekend, when an escaped convict suddenly appeared there. The agent recongnized the convict, who was armed, and had already killed a couple of court officers. The agent automatically drew his weapon, pulled the trigger, and the hammer dropped on an empty chamber. The assumption is that the agent didn't have a round in the chamber because he was off duty, and yet all his training at the range involved shooting a weapon that had a round in the chamber. Clear thinking goes right out the window in a situation like that, and all you have is your built-up muscle memory.

But don't take my word for it.

[Lohman446]

I would point out the practice of the Israeli Defense Forces as the counter example. The IDF carries their weapons (we assume only in a non-offensive situation) without a round chambered. They are trained to pull the slide back as they bring the weapon up. The theory is that it allows them a moment to fully appraise the situation and helps them stay calmer.

I'll agree with you on the tunnel vision aspect, because there is no way around it. And I'll agree with you that you need to decide if you are carrying weapons with a round in the chamber or not. I don't think I'd go as far as agree with you on loosing so much dexterity that a thumb safety becomes an impediment.

As to the theory of a short trigger (and that kimber has an adjustable match grade trigger). I am not a police officer. If my gun comes out of my holster I better be mentally prepared to shoot someone, I better have enough reason to shoot someone. If that gun comes up and points to a target I better be prepared to shoot them. The gun better never be pointed at anything I do not intend to shoot The fact of the matter is, should a gun accidentally discharge in that case, is it really that tragic?

Its a carry gun. If you need it your never going to win a "quick draw" contest with it. I think it imperative that your training focus on a reasonable speed draw that allows the gun to be brought into a ready to fire position. If you practice draw and fire single movement actions you may find yourself legally in the wrong (in MI I have to present a weapon before using it, though there is no time min on that presentation, it may be a simple draw and fire). Its not important who fires first, its important who fires last.

/PS - not that any training I do relies on "nerves of steel" Even with my Sig I find myself trying to flip off a safety (habit from my Browning Hi-power I first was serious with). The fact is the movement is natural enough for me even on a gun without it.

[BeaverEater]

dumb California gun laws

you can get the permit in cali but it will be awfully hard. The only 2 states that dont allow any type of civilian carry is wisconsin and illinios I believe. I saw a map of the states that allowed it and those are the only 2 that i remember not allowing any. Other states may allow but may have restrictions and such in how many they hand out.

[Steelrat]

I would point out the practice of the Israeli Defense Forces as the counter example. The IDF carries their weapons (we assume only in a non-offensive situation) without a round chambered. They are trained to pull the slide back as they bring the weapon up. The theory is that it allows them a moment to fully appraise the situation and helps them stay calmer.

I'll agree with you on the tunnel vision aspect, because there is no way around it. And I'll agree with you that you need to decide if you are carrying weapons with a round in the chamber or not. I don't think I'd go as far as agree with you on loosing so much dexterity that a thumb safety becomes an impediment.

As to the theory of a short trigger (and that kimber has an adjustable match grade trigger). I am not a police officer. If my gun comes out of my holster I better be mentally prepared to shoot someone, I better have enough reason to shoot someone. If that gun comes up and points to a target I better be prepared to shoot them. The gun better never be pointed at anything I do not intend to shoot The fact of the matter is, should a gun accidentally discharge in that case, is it really that tragic?

Its a carry gun. If you need it your never going to win a "quick draw" contest with it. I think it imperative that your training focus on a reasonable speed draw that allows the gun to be brought into a ready to fire position. If you practice draw and fire single movement actions you may find yourself legally in the wrong (in MI I have to present a weapon before using it, though there is no time min on that presentation, it may be a simple draw and fire). Its not important who fires first, its important who fires last.

/PS - not that any training I do relies on "nerves of steel" Even with my Sig I find myself trying to flip off a safety (habit from my Browning Hi-power I first was serious with). The fact is the movement is natural enough for me even on a gun without it.

IDF training relates to military matters, not civilian carry. I've heard their whole "no round chambered" crap before, and it's useless for US police and self-defense carry. If there is a situation that comes up where you are going to need to fire a gun, it is going to be very close, and happen very, very fast. Anyone who follows that IDF crap will just end up dead.

As for the rest, it sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up about the whole thing. Good luck, and enjoy the nice Kimber.

[Lohman446]

IDF training relates to military matters, not civilian carry. I've heard their whole "no round chambered" crap before, and it's useless for US police and self-defense carry. If there is a situation that comes up where you are going to need to fire a gun, it is going to be very close, and happen very, very fast. Anyone who follows that IDF crap will just end up dead.

As for the rest, it sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up about the whole thing. Good luck, and enjoy the nice Kimber.

I don't carry one without a round chambered :), it was just a consideration. I think police and civilan matters are far different and I would hope at contact range I would not need to draw a weapon. Keep in mind I have a black belt in Kenpo and have trained pretty well in contact distance defense in an unarmed position. I figure a gun just gives me another level, and the ability to control a situation better. And yes, I am prepared to use it should the need arise. I don't look at it as arguing with anyone, I figure hearing all the sides of a discussion is always worth it, and considering the various reasons things are done one way or another is worth it. Honestly you may have a very valid point on the undesirability of a massive change in weapons from day to day carry.

[geekwarrior]

you can get the permit in cali but it will be awfully hard. The only 2 states that dont allow any type of civilian carry is wisconsin and illinios I believe. I saw a map of the states that allowed it and those are the only 2 that i remember not allowing any. Other states may allow but may have restrictions and such in how many they hand out.

yes, its near impossible. That doesnt bother me as much as the fact that I cant buy an AR15 or 50 cal sniper rifle. sigh

[Recon by Fire]

Well, I carry because I work for the CIA. International espionage, and what have you.

/please don't tell anyone

See you in the office tomorrow morning, you bringing donuts?



Who carries concealed? Honest law abiding citizens who exercise their rights, that's who. Armed citizens make poor would be victims

Under DHS/FPS we carry locked and loaded with no safety (sort of - Glocks). If we are found to be carrying with our weapons not hot, you can expect to be fired. Personal wise though I also carry locked and loaded but do have the safety engaged.

[Beemer]

Dont Ask

why I had these marked and I wont have to lie.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

http://www.moccw.org/map.html

[Pacifist_Farmer]

And that is why my fireamrs live in VT.

As was my understanding a few years ago, the only town you can't carry a loaded weapon in is Montpelier, I'm sure it has to do with the safety of our elected officials.