Firearm enthusiasts

[SCpoloRicker]

I work for the M16, so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies...

/pokes starchief1959 with a stick
//steelie gets one too, just cuz

[Al_Steel]

I work for the M16, so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies...

/pokes starchief1959 with a stick
//steelie gets one too, just cuz

What!? I practically built the M16 myself so I'm sure YOU don't have any idea what you are talking about. j/k

BTW: My brother-in-law was a Marine Gunney Sgt in Vietnam. He said he took a group of marines out to test fire the M16's when his unit got them. All but 2 out of 12 jammed on the first magazine. That didn't inspire much confidence when he had just been ordered to give up his venerable M14.

Punkncat: IMO, my 1911's recoil is actually lighter than the .357's. It's is only a 3" barrel revolver though. Of all my pistols I LOVE the feel of the 1911 and I am more accurate with it at 25 yards than any of my other guns. Each gun has it's strengths and weaknesses. If I was facing multiple intruders I would probably grab the Glock with 15 rounds of artery slicing black talons. If the USP feels natural and you are very comfortable with then it will be a fine purchase. Controllability, reliabiliy, a man-stopping caliber, and a hi-cap is a great combo.

Lohmann hit the 10 ring; practice makes perfect. The more you practice the less likely you will be to fumble in a high stress situation and the more likely you are to stop an attacker. If you can't tell the safety from the mag release in a low light shoot you are just as likely to drop the mag on the floor as you are to flick off the safety catch when you are in the high stress of a shooting encounter. The only way to gain proficiency with a firearm is to practice, practice, practice. It's also why fit is so important. Poorly fit guns don't get used as often and lack of proficiency can get you deaded.

[Recon by Fire]

Magazine, not clip.

Indeed

[Army]

[Army]

There is a reason why the 1911 is the preferred firearm for action/combat competition shooting.

Simplicity of design and use.

[Al_Steel]

Absolutely, I do think the 1911 get's a bad rep. It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic. Typically it comes down to 2 arguments: 1) they aren't reliable 2) they aren't safe.

First the reliability issue: 1911's (and this can be said of ANY other gun) have reliability problems when people start messing with them and when they aren't properly maintained. I have over 3000 rounds through my 1911. I have experienced 2 FTF's b/c of a bad magazine follower. That's not the gun folks, thats a crappy mag spring. Other than that, I keep it clean and well oiled and it does great. I believe that problems come from people that expect a 1911 to be maintained like a Glock. I made this mistake...except in reverse. I maintained my Glock too well. I started to have problems with FTF's and light strikes with it. Come to find out I was over-caring for it; which is to say that after each range trip I broke it down, cleaned and oiled it per the manuals guidelines. Well apparently a Glock doesn't need that level of care and it gums up the inner workings. So I cleared it all out with solvent, two drops of oil and haven't stripped it since. I snake the barrel after each range trip and now it runs fine. My point is that if you are used to "Glock style" handgun maintenance then a 1911 will be a bit of a shock. If you run 2000 rounds through a 1911 without ever breaking it down then it will probably begin to jam up.

I've also seen people with 1911 "speed guns" have problems. Granted they are the top choice of competition shooters. That said, you wouldn't drive a NASCAR race car on the freeway for the same reason you wouldn't want to use a "race" gun for personal defense. When people start tweaking a 1911 for range accuracy, speed drills, etc. they tend to get picky about ammo and start to have reliability issues. Again, the same can be said of ANY gun though.. this is not specific to the 1911.

Now on to Safety.. a 1911 has a dizzying array of safeties. A palm safety, hammer block, slide lock, etc. All of these are designed to prevent a ND (negligent discharge). For personal defense, the best option for a 1911 is condition 1 (cocked and locked), hammer back, slide lock engaged, round in the chamber. This looks intimidating b/c the hammer is cocked back. The only justification for the fear that I can think of is Hollywood. For dramatic effect the bad or good guy almost always cocks their gun or racks a slide when drawing down on their opponent. Well that's Hollywood. Other than looking intimidating, the 1911 cocked an locked is as safe, if not safer, than Glocks "safe action" trigger. The hammer being cocked back looks like it could go off if you breathed on it. In reality, you can drop any high quality 1911 directly on the hammer and the hammer will not engage. In contrast it's very easy to engage the trigger on a Glock. There is nothing to prevent the trigger from cycling once the center of the trigger has been depressed. Even if the trigger is pulled on a 1911 you still have to disengage the slide lock AND depress the palm safety. Even though condition 1 (cocked and locked) looks intimidating, I would argue that it's safer than almost any DA pistol safety.

I'm not saying the 1911 is the best pistol eva, just that it should be understood before people pass judgement on it. There is a reason why LA SWAT, MEUSOC, and the top world class competition shooters all use the 1911. The 1911 is an excellent design, as proven by it being around for almost 100 years

[WaffleBaron]

It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic.

I like 1911's and own a poly framed pistol. Of course, my SAXD has the grip safety.

[Al_Steel]

+1

G19 and Kahr PM9 for CC, both poly-framed. What can I say, I'm one of those "gun nuts" that you hear so much about.

[Steelrat]

Absolutely, I do think the 1911 get's a bad rep. It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic. Typically it comes down to 2 arguments: 1) they aren't reliable 2) they aren't safe.

First the reliability issue: 1911's (and this can be said of ANY other gun) have reliability problems when people start messing with them and when they aren't properly maintained. I have over 3000 rounds through my 1911. I have experienced 2 FTF's b/c of a bad magazine follower. That's not the gun folks, thats a crappy mag spring. Other than that, I keep it clean and well oiled and it does great. I believe that problems come from people that expect a 1911 to be maintained like a Glock. I made this mistake...except in reverse. I maintained my Glock too well. I started to have problems with FTF's and light strikes with it. Come to find out I was over-caring for it; which is to say that after each range trip I broke it down, cleaned and oiled it per the manuals guidelines. Well apparently a Glock doesn't need that level of care and it gums up the inner workings. So I cleared it all out with solvent, two drops of oil and haven't stripped it since. I snake the barrel after each range trip and now it runs fine. My point is that if you are used to "Glock style" handgun maintenance then a 1911 will be a bit of a shock. If you run 2000 rounds through a 1911 without ever breaking it down then it will probably begin to jam up.

I've also seen people with 1911 "speed guns" have problems. Granted they are the top choice of competition shooters. That said, you wouldn't drive a NASCAR race car on the freeway for the same reason you wouldn't want to use a "race" gun for personal defense. When people start tweaking a 1911 for range accuracy, speed drills, etc. they tend to get picky about ammo and start to have reliability issues. Again, the same can be said of ANY gun though.. this is not specific to the 1911.

Now on to Safety.. a 1911 has a dizzying array of safeties. A palm safety, hammer block, slide lock, etc. All of these are designed to prevent a ND (negligent discharge). For personal defense, the best option for a 1911 is condition 1 (cocked and locked), hammer back, slide lock engaged, round in the chamber. This looks intimidating b/c the hammer is cocked back. The only justification for the fear that I can think of is Hollywood. For dramatic effect the bad or good guy almost always cocks their gun or racks a slide when drawing down on their opponent. Well that's Hollywood. Other than looking intimidating, the 1911 cocked an locked is as safe, if not safer, than Glocks "safe action" trigger. The hammer being cocked back looks like it could go off if you breathed on it. In reality, you can drop any high quality 1911 directly on the hammer and the hammer will not engage. In contrast it's very easy to engage the trigger on a Glock. There is nothing to prevent the trigger from cycling once the center of the trigger has been depressed. Even if the trigger is pulled on a 1911 you still have to disengage the slide lock AND depress the palm safety. Even though condition 1 (cocked and locked) looks intimidating, I would argue that it's safer than almost any DA pistol safety.

I'm not saying the 1911 is the best pistol eva, just that it should be understood before people pass judgement on it. There is a reason why LA SWAT, MEUSOC, and the top world class competition shooters all use the 1911. The 1911 is an excellent design, as proven by it being around for almost 100 years

I never said the 1911 was unreliable or unsafe. I am currently looking at one to purchase myself, though I fear that I might end up with a nighthawk, and therefore a significantly smaller bank account balance.

Any yes, there is a reason that LA SWAT, HRT, and the other high speed operators use the gun. There is also a reason that normal officers DO NOT carry the gun. Only no one has bothered to read any of the reasons I listed for why the 1911 is a suitable carry gun only for people who have trained with it extensively. They just misinterpret my misgivings about normal carry of the 1911 for an attack against it.

[Lohman446]

I'm going to retake this stance. Unless you are going to properly train yourself with a gun and become comfortable using it you should not carry it.

The idea of giving one gun "points" in a discussion because it is easier to use and requires less familiarity with is a bit alarming. Especially when said guns have "safe action" triggers, or some such thing. Especially when you consider how few people, even those that do train, practice any sort of weapon retention tactics.

Edit: That being said, if you are going to be familiar with it, carry what you want

[Steelrat]

I'm going to retake this stance. Unless you are going to properly train yourself with a gun and become comfortable using it you should not carry it.

The idea of giving one gun "points" in a discussion because it is easier to use and requires less familiarity with is a bit alarming. Especially when said guns have "safe action" triggers, or some such thing. Especially when you consider how few people, even those that do train, practice any sort of weapon retention tactics.

Edit: That being said, if you are going to be familiar with it, carry what you want

There are plenty of guns you can carry and use with "normal" training. However, there are those firearms whose proper usage requires MORE training. I feel the 1911 is one of them. So if a person asks "what gun do I buy for self-defense" I assume a normal level of training, especially since they had to ask the question in the first place, and therefore do not recommend a 1911. I love how people cite the users of 1911 as being SWAT, competition shooters, etc, which REINFORCES my point. Those folks shoot their guns all the time, far more than an average shooter would.

And I do agree with you, in a way. I feel that most people who carry are completely unqualified to do so.

[Al_Steel]

I never said the 1911 was unreliable or unsafe. I am currently looking at one to purchase myself, though I fear that I might end up with a nighthawk, and therefore a significantly smaller bank account balance.

Any yes, there is a reason that LA SWAT, HRT, and the other high speed operators use the gun. There is also a reason that normal officers DO NOT carry the gun. Only no one has bothered to read any of the reasons I listed for why the 1911 is a suitable carry gun only for people who have trained with it extensively. They just misinterpret my misgivings about normal carry of the 1911 for an attack against it.

Wasn't going after your post specifically, I was simply stating the two most parroted reasons I have heard whenever people bemoan the 1911.

I did read your posts and I think you made the point quite well that it's a platform that takes a lot of practice to become proficient with. I never took away from your posts that you didn't recommend a 1911. While a 1911 takes some getting used to, it may be a great beginner gun for the same reasons a manual transmission is great in a first car. If someone can become proficient with it, all others seem simplistic to operate. BUT I certainly agree that if a beginner doesn't plan to commit to some serious range time then they should not get a 1911 as a carry or personal protection firearm. Instead I would recommend a revolver or a firearm with "revolver like" simplicity such as a Glock, Kahr, etc. That way a poorly trained individual can just "point and shoot" when the adrenaline is flowing, their hands are shaking, vision is tunneled, and fine motor skills are dulled.

BTW: The Nighthawk is an EXCELLENT firearm, good luck with that!

[starchief1959]

Steelrat, it was the way you came off in the first posts you made on the subject. If you would have been talking like you've been in your last few posts it wouldn't seem so offensive. I know I know, the way it's interpreted is half the battle. And goodluck with the Nighthawk. Isn't that Walther's newer airpistol? - Peace

As far as MY view on carrying, all my firearms stay in the safe unless I am going hunting or target shooting.

[Al_Steel]

And goodluck with the Nighthawk. Isn't that Walther's newer airpistol? - Peace

I believe Steelrat is talking about this... http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/

[starchief1959]

Never heard of them. Look like VERY nice pistols. And what do ya know? They're all 1911's! The only Nighthawk I've heard of until now was the Walther. Sorry to be a turd.

Best luck to you Steelrat. Let us know how it is if you buy one.