tired of trying, want references

[Mishotaki]

Hello there,

last year, i've picked up my first automag, a beautiful classic automag RT, that has been a wall hanger for many years. i've tried shooting it, but since pretty much all the orings were rotten, it was pretty much only leaking(you know they're rotten when you try to remove them and they break off in two without much force).

So i've picked up a cheap rebuild kit, tried changing all the orings... and it shot a bit, but leaked afterwards... after some research, i've learned that it was because i was using buna orings and that automags needed nitrile orings... so i've ordered a rebuild kit from AGD and used that to change all the orings again!

i've tried all that i could to stop making it leak, i've sent it to my proshop (mirabel), watched the Tom Kaye videos, checked a bunch of FAQs, nothing that i did would make it stop from leaking.

i'm now tired of trying, I wanna know if you guys could refer me to someone who I could send i to and have it fixed? in Canada (quebec or ontario) if possible, having a week of shipping instead of a month(2 weeks to the states, then 2 weeks to come back) would be nice. Ive tried to fill the form to request repairs on the AGD website, but it sent me to a 404 error...

thanks for your help.

-A canadian who would like to shoot an automag-

[dboggs79]

Where exactly is it leaking from?

[gretch6364]

I am sure if you are willing to walk everyone through the details of your issue they can help fix it. Did you replace every single O-ring? I would if I were you. I did it with a 68 Classic that had not been shot or gassed up or oiled in 10+ years. Not a single leak and shot perfect.

[Nobody]

i know that on the banjo bolt, they can always use a little extra oil directly on them to help them move in. also, its best to leave the body/frame screw a little loose, then tighten the valve screw and then tighten the frame/body screw. helps seat everything nicely.

but if you can give an idea of were the leak is coming from, it can help determine what is the problem and how to rectify it.

[vintage]

does it have a spring in the power tube or a spacer? if its a spring you probably need a spacer instead.

[blackdeath1k]

Agd spacers came out before the classic rt.

I know its been asked before. But did you replace EAVERY Oring ? Even the 2 with the little plastic spacer between them on the main pin that runs through the middle of the gun?

Other than that it looks like everything has been covered until we get more details.

[cockerpunk]

automags are dead simple to figure out where they are leaking from

watch toms video on using the trigger pull to diagnose the leak.

bolt stick is usually alignment between the body and frame, but can also be caused by poor level 10 tuning.

[athomas]

Since it was a "wall hanger", I am going to assume it has a level 7 bolt.

AGD or even aftermarket oring kits generally aren't buna orings. Nitrile and buna are the same thing. AGD uses urethane, but 90 durometer buna will still work. Urethane was originally used because it handled CO2 better. The biggest problem with aftermarket orings, are the quality. Unless you know the source and trust the tolerances, then only use genuine AGD orings and kits.

Now for the diagnosis:

If it leaks out the back, then the problem is most likely the regulator seat oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the top, then the problem is the regulator piston oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the side, then the problem is most likely one of the two orings on the regulator pin assembly.
If it leaks out the bottom of the valve, then it is one of the two orings in/on the bottom half of the on-off assembly.
If it leaks out between the two halves of the valve, then the problem is the large oring around the threads on the back half of the valve.
If it leaks out the rear banjo bolt that holds the valve in place, then replace the oring around that bolt. Be careful, sharp edges on the rail can cause the oring to get damaged. If you have a chance, smooth the edges to reduce the cutting edge. That will reduce oring failures and leaking problems down the road.

If it leaks out the front, there is a series of tests to diagnose the problem:

Hold the trigger in. If it still leaks and sounds like a lawn sprinkler, the problem is the small oring at the top of the on-off assembly.

or

Hold the trigger in. If it stops leaking, then the problem is either a bad powertube oring (Not the one on the powertube tip. It doesn't do anything except hold the tip on.), or a powertube spacer that is too long. If replacing the powertube oring doesn't solve the issue, install a shorter powertube spacer. If you can't get a short enough spacer, check your sear for wear (this should only occur on a well used marker).

You should be able to diagnose and fix any mag without much trouble. They are quite robust and generally don't break. Only the orings get damaged, and they are easily identified and replaced once you get familiar with your mag.

Happy hunting.

[The Ritual]

Since it was a "wall hanger", I am going to assume it has a level 7 bolt.

AGD or even aftermarket oring kits generally aren't buna orings. Nitrile and buna are the same thing. AGD uses urethane, but 90 durometer buna will still work. Urethane was originally used because it handled CO2 better. The biggest problem with aftermarket orings, are the quality. Unless you know the source and trust the tolerances, then only use genuine AGD orings and kits.

Now for the diagnosis:

If it leaks out the back, then the problem is most likely the regulator seat oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the top, then the problem is the regulator piston oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the side, then the problem is most likely one of the two orings on the regulator pin assembly.
If it leaks out the bottom of the valve, then it is one of the two orings in/on the bottom half of the on-off assembly.
If it leaks out between the two halves of the valve, then the problem is the large oring around the threads on the back half of the valve.
If it leaks out the rear banjo bolt that holds the valve in place, then replace the oring around that bolt. Be careful, sharp edges on the rail can cause the oring to get damaged. If you have a chance, smooth the edges to reduce the cutting edge. That will reduce oring failures and leaking problems down the road.

If it leaks out the front, there is a series of tests to diagnose the problem:

Hold the trigger in. If it still leaks and sounds like a lawn sprinkler, the problem is the small oring at the top of the on-off assembly.

or

Hold the trigger in. If it stops leaking, then the problem is either a bad powertube oring (Not the one on the powertube tip. It doesn't do anything except hold the tip on.), or a powertube spacer that is too long. If replacing the powertube oring doesn't solve the issue, install a shorter powertube spacer. If you can't get a short enough spacer, check your sear for wear (this should only occur on a well used marker).

You should be able to diagnose and fix any mag without much trouble. They are quite robust and generally don't break. Only the orings get damaged, and they are easily identified and replaced once you get familiar with your mag.

Happy hunting.

My feeble complaint is that it took me an awful lot of air to make it down that list when I was first learning about automags. My lack of initial familiarity made the automag "feel" more complicated than it actually was and my autococker trained brain needed to stop over complicating things.

The original post reminds me of my early frustrations and daily visits to the pro shops for air fills. I went so far as to buy 3 more tanks in 2 months just so I could have more air to troubleshoot/learn about my automag.

Everything athomas said is solid though, and enabled me to restore her to 100% leak free operational status. I wish I had that info in one post when I was first starting out. I've learned more about automags from the AO community in a few months than I have over a few years on mcb and pbn.

That R/T Classic is absolutely worth the time and patience to restore, and she just might make you smile when you finally take her out. I know mine did.

[Mishotaki]

Allright, you guys seems to be really interested in trying to diagnose it... so i've tried to log all that i could...
pictures of the valve... all o-rings have been replaced with the kit i ordered from AGD, except the black one in the powertube, i didn'T have one in that kit, I just kept the one from the previous kit i had

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Mishotaki/library/Automag

here is a video of it leaking and showing it leak while trying to shoot it:

http://youtu.be/Hx0v5RxxZGo

funny thing: yesterday, it would shoot and RT without problem.. until the trigger stopped responding and it started leaking.. then it just would chuff like it does now without actually shooting, no change were made

it doesn't leak out the back, it's pretty much in the middle and down the barrel once in a while and holding the trigger doesn't make it puff...

edit:
after i've put everything back together, i've aired it back up on camera:

http://youtu.be/6hwKV8kaO4c

doesn't leak that much, upping the velocity made it shoot instead of making a "puff" noise but still did leak a bit...

I don't get how that gun leaks sometimes and doesn't leak when I try to air it up later on!

Since it was a "wall hanger", I am going to assume it has a level 7 bolt.

AGD or even aftermarket oring kits generally aren't buna orings. Nitrile and buna are the same thing. AGD uses urethane, but 90 durometer buna will still work. Urethane was originally used because it handled CO2 better. The biggest problem with aftermarket orings, are the quality. Unless you know the source and trust the tolerances, then only use genuine AGD orings and kits.

Now for the diagnosis:

If it leaks out the back, then the problem is most likely the regulator seat oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the top, then the problem is the regulator piston oring.
If it leaks out the little hole in the side, then the problem is most likely one of the two orings on the regulator pin assembly.
If it leaks out the bottom of the valve, then it is one of the two orings in/on the bottom half of the on-off assembly.
If it leaks out between the two halves of the valve, then the problem is the large oring around the threads on the back half of the valve.
If it leaks out the rear banjo bolt that holds the valve in place, then replace the oring around that bolt. Be careful, sharp edges on the rail can cause the oring to get damaged. If you have a chance, smooth the edges to reduce the cutting edge. That will reduce oring failures and leaking problems down the road.

If it leaks out the front, there is a series of tests to diagnose the problem:

Hold the trigger in. If it still leaks and sounds like a lawn sprinkler, the problem is the small oring at the top of the on-off assembly.

or

Hold the trigger in. If it stops leaking, then the problem is either a bad powertube oring (Not the one on the powertube tip. It doesn't do anything except hold the tip on.), or a powertube spacer that is too long. If replacing the powertube oring doesn't solve the issue, install a shorter powertube spacer. If you can't get a short enough spacer, check your sear for wear (this should only occur on a well used marker).

You should be able to diagnose and fix any mag without much trouble. They are quite robust and generally don't break. Only the orings get damaged, and they are easily identified and replaced once you get familiar with your mag.

Happy hunting.

sorry, I meant buna from the online shop and the urethane from an AGD automag RT rebuild kit directly from them.

it doesn't leak out the back... although it did before...

I cannot tell if it leaks from the top, side, bottom or between halves... maybe if i experienced those separately, i would know...

it can leak out the front of the barrel, but no sprinkler sound..

my lack of knowledge and experience in fixing it makes me want to rely on someone who could do it with me or for me and learn what the problem was...

[vintage]

Oil?

[Mishotaki]

Oil?

all orings are oiled and i've added a bunch of drops of oil in the ASA a lot of times... using "trinity gun oil" most of what i've used from that was on my mag, while trying to know what was wrong with it...

[MDPredator]

I just rebuilt my classics with buna o-rings, used teflon remoil. Buggers shot lasers. I will be getting my hands on some gold cup oil next week.

[athomas]

Don't worry about the black oring on the powertube tip. Its only there to provide friction to keep the tip from coming unscrewed. It doesn't actually seal anything.

The edge of the bolt on that mag is really beat up. It should be replaced. If you do replace it, you might as well get a level 10 bolt and a new high pressure piston assembly for the higher pressure that the level 10 operates at. If the sear is just as bad, they both need to be replaced. With a bad bolt and sear, the timing of the gun will be off. The bolt could sit farther forward than it should, causing a leak out the front of the powertube and chuffing due to the timing being off. An interim solution would be to use a shorter powertube spacer. It may or may not work depending on how beat up the sear is and how it interacts with the damaged bolt.

The bolt stick issue where the gun chuffs and the trigger doesn't reset properly could also be a weak bolt spring. The bolt springs are consumable items that wear out and need replacing from time to time.

[Mishotaki]

Don't worry about the black oring on the powertube tip. Its only there to provide friction to keep the tip from coming unscrewed. It doesn't actually seal anything.

The edge of the bolt on that mag is really beat up. It should be replaced. If you do replace it, you might as well get a level 10 bolt and a new high pressure piston assembly for the higher pressure that the level 10 operates at. If the sear is just as bad, they both need to be replaced. With a bad bolt and sear, the timing of the gun will be off. The bolt could sit farther forward than it should, causing a leak out the front of the powertube and chuffing due to the timing being off. An interim solution would be to use a shorter powertube spacer. It may or may not work depending on how beat up the sear is and how it interacts with the damaged bolt.

The bolt stick issue where the gun chuffs and the trigger doesn't reset properly could also be a weak bolt spring. The bolt springs are consumable items that wear out and need replacing from time to time.

the bolt spring is not even 6 months old, as it was in the AGD rebuild kit...

how would i know if my sear is too worn out?
pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/Mishotaki/Automag/IMG_02651_zpsc82b4e34.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/Mishotaki/Automag/IMG_02671_zps30615956.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v622/Mishotaki/Automag/IMG_02691_zps5444a04b.jpg

I don't really feel like spending 150$+ to get a lvl 10 and a new sear... i'm canadian, 115$ + 10$ shipping + customs + CAD to USD = pretty much 150$
I also heard that tuning a lvl 10 every couple months can be a pain...

sigh... repairing this thing would get pretty damned expensive...