RT PRO with level 10 chopping paint

[Mondoatx]

Hey guys,

Picked up an RT Pro a few weeks back. Initially I was using a ninja 68 4500 at a preset output pressure of about 800 psi.

I didn't like the trigger so I replaced that reg (on the bottle) with a SHP reg with an output of 1100 psi. This made the trigger super reactive and it flies now.

Took it out to play today and I was breaking more than 3 balls out of every hundred all day (shot 800-900 rounds).

I was emailing with an AGD tech a few weeks ago and he explained to me it has a level 10 bolt after I described the power tube to him.

The paint was breaking in the breach, not the barrel. You can tell because when you remove the hopper there is paint in the gun's feed neck and the neck of the hopper as well.

Few different things:
-I thought the level 10 bolt was supposed to stop the bolt from chopping paint.

-How can I confirm I do in fact have a level 10?

-How can I resolve this?

Additional information:
-I am using an old school revolution hopper. I suppose the hopper could be too slow to keep up with the gun but isn't the level 10 supposed to stop the bolt if the ball is not completely chambered?

-Today I used a 14 inch smart parts freak barrel system with a .687 insert. The paint fit the insert snugly and I was able to blow it through using my breath.

-The gun has a vertical feed body. Not sure if it is AGD or aftermarket.

-I broke paint with the 800 psi compressed air reg... Just seems like it got worse with the 1100 psi reg today.

-The bolt does not have a foamie.

-I was sometimes breaking the first shot... Not always a chop in the middle of a string of shots...

Thanks for any help you can offer or recommendations you can make. This would be one sweet gun if I could get this addressed.

Mondoatx

[Laku]

Lvl 10 should have foamie in it.

You can recognize lvl 10 bolt from that its stem goes below bolt lip and is hollow. Also lvl 10 bolt back lip has chamfer on it.

Is that twist lock body or auto cocker threaded?

Also check the detents, which ever style they are.

If it is lvl 10 then here's how to tune it. Direct link to Athomases post. http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797

[Nobody]

Hey guys,

Picked up an RT Pro a few weeks back. Initially I was using a ninja 68 4500 at a preset output pressure of about 800 psi.

I didn't like the trigger so I replaced that reg (on the bottle) with a SHP reg with an output of 1100 psi. This made the trigger super reactive and it flies now.

Took it out to play today and I was breaking more than 3 balls out of every hundred all day (shot 800-900 rounds).

I was emailing with an AGD tech a few weeks ago and he explained to me it has a level 10 bolt after I described the power tube to him.

The paint was breaking in the breach, not the barrel. You can tell because when you remove the hopper there is paint in the gun's feed neck and the neck of the hopper as well.

Just because paint in the breech, does not necessarily mean that it is chopping.

Few different things:
-I thought the level 10 bolt was supposed to stop the bolt from chopping paint.

When properly set up, paint will bounce off a mag with a L10. Poor man's test is, take the gun airred up & put a pen cap in the breech & pull the trigger. It should bounce off it and reset itself. If not then, you do not have a L10 or its not set up correctly.

-How can I confirm I do in fact have a level 10?

Follow the steps from the other poster. You should also have had a small disk, brass collars, orings and shims with the gun. If you didn't have them, then you kore than likely didn't get it with the gun.

-How can I resolve this?

If you bought the gun and it was supposed to have a L10, then contact AGD and they will rectify the problem. Mistakes sometimes do happen.

Additional information:
-I am using an old school revolution hopper. I suppose the hopper could be too slow to keep up with the gun but isn't the level 10 supposed to stop the bolt if the ball is not completely chambered?

No. Regardless of the hopper, the bolt will bounce off an improperly seated ball.

-Today I used a 14 inch smart parts freak barrel system with a .687 insert. The paint fit the insert snugly and I was able to blow it through using my breath.

Was it hot out? Paint can swell causing the bore to go from "snug" to possibly "too tight". Also check the bore and the barrel itself for nicks, burrs or anything else that shouldn't be there.

-The gun has a vertical feed body. Not sure if it is AGD or aftermarket.

If you look on the site, and it looks a ULE body, then it is one.

-I broke paint with the 800 psi compressed air reg... Just seems like it got worse with the 1100 psi reg today.

I do not believe in using SHP regs as they can cause more problems. The more reactive the trigger is, the faster the gun will shot & the faster the balls get into breech. Faster is not always better.

-The bolt does not have a foamie.

It doesn't have one, i.e. it was shot off the bolt face (there should be a place to put it on the bolt face, a cut out) or did it never have one? If you have a solid nosed bolt, then you did not have a L10 bolt.

-I was sometimes breaking the first shot... Not always a chop in the middle of a string of shots...

Again, paint is a variable & it may be other factors in the breaks. If the paint swelled, then the balls that were breaking where caused by the barrel. If you couldn'tshot it out the barrel, then the only place it could go is in the breech.

Thanks for any help you can offer or recommendations you can make. This would be one sweet gun if I could get this addressed.

Mondoatx

That is what this site is here for. Honestly, pic of the gun, bolt and body would help in identifying any problems you have.

But here are questions for you:

Where did you get this gun?
Did you buy it new from AGD or used?
Did you change or adjust anything prior to you using it?
Do you have a classic valve (stainless steel) or a valve that says RT Pro or has a X on it?

[Mondoatx]

Laku,

Thanks for your response.

I will take a picture(s) of the bolt and power tube components this evening and post it. The bolt stem is hollow and extends beyond the base of the bolt.

The body is threaded for auto cocker barrels.

When you say check the detents... What exactly am I checking for? How do I know if the detent is good or bad?

Will take a look at the post about tuning the level 10... But I bought the gun used and it didn't come with any extra shims or parts of anything.

Thanks again for your help.

Mondoatx

[ghost flanker]

To check the detents, remove the air tank and hopper from your gun and press on the detent(s) inside the breech with your finger. Good detents feel springy and offer some resistance against being pressed in.

A detent with a bad spring may have close to zero resistance or it may have a tendency to stick or stay in when being pressed in. This will allow double feeds to occur, causing breaks in the breech. A detent can also lose its teflon ball which will allow the seated paintball to rest in the empty space to the side and slightly forward where the teflon ball used to be, also causing breaks in the breech as well as other symptoms.

[audioSLAVE]

To check the detents, remove the air tank and hopper from your gun and press on the detent(s) inside the breech with your finger. Good detents feel springy and offer some resistance against being pressed in.

A detent with a bad spring may have close to zero resistance or it may have a tendency to stick or stay in when being pressed in. This will allow double feeds to occur, causing breaks in the breech. A detent can also lose its teflon ball which will allow the seated paintball to rest in the empty space to the side and slightly forward where the teflon ball used to be, also causing breaks in the breech as well as other symptoms.

You also want to make sure you or the previous owner didn't over tighten them so they are making contact with the bolt.

[ghost flanker]

Assuming your detent is good, though, I think the most likely culprit is the missing foamie on your Level 10 bolt. This is bad for 2 reasons:

1.) The obvious... Foam is soft. Aluminum not so much.

2.) Much more importantly, the Level 10 foamie is responsible for seating the paintball in the correct position up against the detent(s) and keeping it in-line with the ball stack. In the case of a missing foamie, the seated paintball is able to roll backwards about 1/8" towards the bolt. This allows the next paintball above to drop further down a little more and slightly in front of the seated paintball, creating more of a staggered stack rather than a true vertical stack. This sets the stage for a lot more friction between the first two paintballs to occur when firing. Now, when the gun is fired, the seated paintball must push the paintball on top and slightly in front of it out of the way. The paintball on top will either be pushed upward through the feedneck as the seated paintball underneath slides past it, or the two paintballs will simply be crushed into each other, which would explain the presence of paint in your feedneck. Or the paintball on top might only develop a hairline crack in its shell, thereby priming it to blow apart upon the impact of the next shot's air blast.

I do not think that an overly small bore size is causing the breaks. If you can consistently blow your paintballs through the barrel in the morning, then you'll be fine throughout the rest of the day, even with humidity. I underbore all the time, ~.686 sized paint with a .682 bore insert on my mags and a .679 insert on my Phantom, and I don't break paint.

By the way, what kind of paint were you using that was breaking so badly?

[maniacmechanic]

How was your paint quality ??

[athomas]

I've had paint that was so bad, that I couldn't fire a shot out my barrel without it breaking, even with the level 10. That was with a properly sized barrel. With experience, I have come to overbore all my barrels and don't have that issue any more. Good paint benefits from a proper bore match. Overboring, doesn't hurt the accuracy that much but does affect the efficiency a bit. The upside is that it really helps prevent busted balls when you have really brittle paint.

The level 10 bolt only prevents chops in the first 1/4 inch of the bolt movement. The bolt would need to be at the back of the breach for a ball to be partially loaded which is a situation that would cause it to be chopped. The bolt would be very gentle when it made contact with the ball in that location. Once it gets past the 1/4 inch point, the bolt is subject to full forward force. If the barrel offers too much resistance due to an oversize ball, or a barrel is too tight for the paint, then the force of the bolt will smash it into the opening causing some of the paint to squirt back onto the bolt and up into the breach. This can happen even if the paint barely touches the barrel walls, if the seams are extremely weak. Its something that should be looked at.

Normally, a level 10 bolt will prevent all chops, even if you use the shortest gold spring. The air source doesn't matter. The force on the bolt is held constant by the regulated air set by the velocity adjuster. If the first shot in a string is busting, then that is an indication that you are not experiencing a chop, but rather a barrel break.

[Mondoatx]

[QUOTE=Nobody;2902345]Just because paint in the breech, does not necessarily mean that it is chopping.



When properly set up, paint will bounce off a mag with a L10. Poor man's test is, take the gun airred up & put a pen cap in the breech & pull the trigger. It should bounce off it and reset itself. If not then, you do not have a L10 or its not set up correctly.

I stuck the body of a pen (without the ink in it) in the breech and fired it a couple of times... I was expecting it to destroy the pen... but the bolt stopped and reset multiple times (it was crazy!)... From what I have read, this means I do in fact have a level 10... does this mean it is tuned correctly?

Follow the steps from the other poster. You should also have had a small disk, brass collars, orings and shims with the gun. If you didn't have them, then you kore than likely didn't get it with the gun.



If you bought the gun and it was supposed to have a L10, then contact AGD and they will rectify the problem. Mistakes sometimes do happen.



No. Regardless of the hopper, the bolt will bounce off an improperly seated ball.



Was it hot out? Paint can swell causing the bore to go from "snug" to possibly "too tight". Also check the bore and the barrel itself for nicks, burrs or anything else that shouldn't be there.

It was hot out, I am in Texas... but it was breaking just as much in the morning when it was cooler as it was in the afternoon.

If you look on the site, and it looks a ULE body, then it is one.

It is a ULE Body (it has the flames milled into the feed neck)

I do not believe in using SHP regs as they can cause more problems. The more reactive the trigger is, the faster the gun will shot & the faster the balls get into breech. Faster is not always better.



It doesn't have one, i.e. it was shot off the bolt face (there should be a place to put it on the bolt face, a cut out) or did it never have one? If you have a solid nosed bolt, then you did not have a L10 bolt.

I will order some and put one on the bolt. Now that you mention it... if you look closely at the face of the bolt (which is totally flat) you can see where it looks like something was glued there before.

Again, paint is a variable & it may be other factors in the breaks. If the paint swelled, then the balls that were breaking where caused by the barrel. If you couldn'tshot it out the barrel, then the only place it could go is in the breech.

I will try a larger insert next time.

That is what this site is here for. Honestly, pic of the gun, bolt and body would help in identifying any problems you have.

But here are questions for you:

Where did you get this gun? I bought it used from a field called Outlaw Paintball in Pflugerville TX.
Did you buy it new from AGD or used? Used
Did you change or adjust anything prior to you using it? No, I tried to put a power tube spacer kit in it but as soon as I opened the power tube it was abundantly obvious that this was not an old school mag with spacers.
Do you have a classic valve (stainless steel) or a valve that says RT Pro or has a X on it? The valve is black with an X and the letters "RT" over the X with the word "pro" to the right of the letters "RT"

I have attached an image of the gun and a couple of the bolt (1 of the back of the bolt and 1 of the front of the bolt). First time posting images... if you can't view them please let me know.

RT Image.jpgfront of bolt.jpgBack of Bolt.jpg

Thanks Nobody!

[Mondoatx]

Thanks ghost flanker.

I checked the detent and while it did offer some resistance... it seemed a little loose, so I ordered some new detents from the AGD website.

I also checked out the foamies on the site... they look way different (thicker) and cover WAY more surface area than the old level 7 foamies from back in the day (those were a tiny foam circle that went right in the middle of the bolt's face)... so I ordered some of those as well. I can see that with the size and thickness of the foamie not having one could possibly make a huge difference.

I threw away the bag from the paint and can't remember what kind it was... but it is what I have been using for the last few months with no problem in my Rize (which is super easy on paint, haven't ever broken a ball with that gun). The shell is purple (like a lavender) with green stripes and the fill is purple.

I will go to the field again in a week or so and I will let you know what kind it was.

Thanks again,

Mondoatx

[Mondoatx]

audioSLAVE,

Thanks. I ordered some new detents because the one in there now seems a little loose. I will make sure not to overtighten when I install the new ones.

[vintage]

which bolt spring is it using(gold, red, or grey) and how does it look?

[Mondoatx]

honestly the paint seems kind of hard... it is regular to have to shoot people 2-3 times to get one to break... it didn't seem any better or worse than any other weekend... but it definitely didn't seem overly brittle. I play at a field that is pretty busy... so I don't think they sit on their paint for too long.

[Mondoatx]

Thanks athomas.

I will try to overbore next time I am out and will see how it goes. Good point with the first shot in a string...

Mondoatx