Originally posted by BigEvil
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I was going to mention the same. He agreed to do one for me once, but it wasn't cheap. IIRC, he was looking in the $75 range and he really didn't want to do it. -
I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;Originally posted by maniacmechanic View Post
Overbore
- Poor efficiency
- High consistency
Bore-matched
- Moderate efficiency
- Poor consistency
Underbore
- High efficiency
- High consistency
Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.
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Oh ghost flanker, if you believe that more than what your own experience is, i just can't help you.Originally posted by ghost flanker View Post
Anyway, a TW is more like 3sec removal, but that is semantics...
I have a plethora of barrels and some are gun specific, but most are me seeing what the paint does and which gun with what barrel. Air efficiency is not a huge factor to me. Whether limiting paint to what you can carry/shoot or free air.
But availability of a TW freak back, the cost of it now, & the cost of getting a TW cut is not cost effective. A freak'd Dye Aluminium is about $35 and about the same as to get a barrel freak bored and the cost of a freak barrel(guesstimating the costs, haven't looked at the costs in a bit). The $75+ to get a TW freak'd and the cost of a freak back is $100.
But the biggest deal is the TW body is the weight and the feedneck. It was never over the performance or advantage of the twistlock vs threaded barrels. Though both have their own individual faults, it is the system implemented tbat falls in the long run.Comment
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I have some color match crown points, but went to ULE bodies and so wanted to get them cocker-threaded.
Cocker threading a crown point is relatively easy, but you loose a few inches of barrel length as the breech area has to be cut off.
If you were willing to cocker-thread the barrel, you could then freak bore it pretty easily. It definitely has plenty of wall thickness.
Then you can use a Doc's adapter for TL bodies and simply screw into ULE bodies.
As others have mentioned, this is a very roundabout way to accomplish something that is of arguable benefit; but it can be done.
To me, the value of a complete color kit with a ULE body was worth the money and time. So maybe the end product is worth it to you.Comment
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Originally posted by ghost flanker View Post
I'm going to start this with ,, I'm just a stupid mechanic
But if you don't think you lose Accuracy when you over bore ,, well I guess that's the way You think ,,, I KNOW different
If you think Cockerpunk is a Scientist , good for you ,,, BUT he's not
Yes he did all these barrel tests and produced some " Findings " basically his Thoughts on paper ,, and most really don't care about what he thinks or says
It's been MY EXPERIENCE in the field , shootin the same marker for about 13 years now , barrel to paint bore matching improves Accuracy , consistency over the chrono & air efficiency ( which I really don't care about , although I do get 3 pods and a hopper out of a 45/45 ) ALL improve with Paint to Bore matching
The only time you Won't make things better with a paint/bore match is when you are shooting Garbage paint ,
When I have to shoot Garbage paint I overbore ( I only shoot Garbage when nothing else is available , I will spend the extra for Good paint )
Want to know who can tell ya about Accuracy ?? the guys I shoot at ,, I can't tell ya how many times over the years I've been told ; Man that thing ( my AGD ) shoots fn darts , I've had a FSR shooter tell me at 100 feet it shoots just as accurately as their SAR 12
Now of course this is all just my opinion ( and Experience ) ,, I have no Science to back it up
As I said before this thread is a mute point for me , I'm no longer interested in having a TL barrel cut for a freakComment
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If all paint is equal then all barrels will operate very similarly. We can't guarantee absolute equality within the same case in most instances. Consistency does equate to accuracy, since consistency affects the velocity and arc on the ball. That even holds true for paint that flies straight with a natural gravitational arc.Originally posted by ghost flanker View Post
maniacmechanic: You do lose a bit of accuracy when you overbore compared to paint matching, but you gain overall accuracy over a wider range of paint sizes and shapes. If you were to throw a mix of 10 different manufacturers balls in a hopper, you would get better overall performance from an overbore barrel than one that was borematched to one of the paint sizes. That same performance characteristic helps improve overall accuracy for mishaped balls.
ghostflanker: Barrel wobble is a thing. You can actually see the vibrational movement of the barrel in extreme cases. Its not a hugh detriment but it does increase the shot spread a bit. Some barrels are worst than others due to the differences in the outside diameter of the back section. I used to wrap the barrel with tape to take up some of the slack in the body to help prevent it. The twistlock barrel is as accurate as a cocker barrel if tested where accuracy is measured by holding the barrel fixed.
The smallest equation insert in my kit is 0.683". The largest is 0.693". They are stainless, so nice and tough. I love the kit which contains 6 inserts. They are the best barrels I own.Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.Comment
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Never in my paintball career have I put more than 1 type of paint in my hopper ( to play anyway ) , it's been the rare occasion when I found a major size change in paint bag to bag ( again Garbage paint )Comment
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No, no one would put more than one paint type into their hopper. It just illustrates a point. But even good paint often has inconsistencies. Overboring evens out those inconsistencies. It isn't even so much about those inconsistencies as it is about protection. If you have even 1 bad ball in your batch and it happens to get shot in a bore matched barrel, the chances of a barrel break increase significantly. Then all paint shot after that are usually inconsistent until you clean everything out. Overboring reduces that chance as well. Most serious tournament players overbore to protect against breakage and don't worry so much about accuracy, because there isn't much difference in accuracy among barrels when using good paint. The All Americans used to run 0.695" barrels on all their guns all the time, even when paint was much smaller than that. Their accuracy was quite good and took them to several world championships.Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.Comment
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Originally posted by maniacmechanic View PostOk, well my personal experience tells me that paintball accuracy is virtually the same between any of my barrels ... as far as I can tell, anyway. But my personal experience means nothing to the person to whom I'm presenting my argument, and rightfully so. Using only personal experience to support my claim will not be very convincing to anyone who is not already in agreement with me. What is needed here is demonstrable evidence.Originally posted by Nobody View Post
Psychology has shown that different people can perceive the same observation very differently, especially if certain biases of theirs differ. Humans are fallible as all hell when it comes to stuff like this, and we are all highly susceptible to something called expectation bias. Now, could I be the one whose personal experience is in total error? Absolutely. My expectation bias towards the idea that barrel accuracy is a total myth, when it's actually not, could be skewing my perception of my observations, not unlike a placebo effect. This is precisely why it is so important to remove all subjectivity by testing things in a fair, scientific manner. So, yes, I will believe demonstrable evidence over anecdotal evidence every time. Gordon and Bryce may not be scientists, and Gordon may not be likable as a person, but those things have no bearing on whether the barrel tests they performed were scientifically sound and incorporated proper statistical analysis of the results to determine their significance. Furthermore, their testing methods were highly transparent to the community on techpb which effectively enabled sufficient peer review. As far as I am aware, no other quality tests have ever replicated their experiments and failed to reproduce their results. If you have access to, or are able to demonstrate convincing evidence that contradicts or dispels Punkworks' barrel test results, I invite you to share it here. If you can demonstrate that Punkworks' test results are really nothing more than Gordon's subjective thoughts on paper or are otherwise unreliable as evidence, please share it. If you do, I will happily change my stance on this topic; I'd rather find out I'm wrong than win an internet debate and continue to believe in something that isn't true. But if you cannot support your claims, then I will have no choice but to follow the evidence that is available to me.Last edited by ghost flanker; 03-05-2017, 07:14 AM.Comment
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athomas,
It's been demonstrated in tests that underboring to less than .010 does not result in a higher frequency of barrel breaks compared to bore matching. If you have data which contradicts the sources I've cited, I'd like to take a look.Comment
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due to popular request ,,, it's back !!Comment
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Awesome. Thank you!Comment
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You are correct. There isn't much difference between these two (borematching and underboring). The major difference is between underbore and bore matching compared to overboring. Even bore matching has an issue when you get a single odd paintball. This usually doesn't show up in normal rental paint, but will show up in fragile paint. If you jam that oversized paintball into a barrel opening that it doesn't fit into, the chances of it breaking go up significantly. I qualify the oversized paintball as one that has an odd size that causes one orientation to be larger than the opening it is going into.Originally posted by ghost flanker View Post
I don't have my actual test data anymore, so it can't be used for a real scientific evaluation. That is long gone since my last move. The numbers were significant for the paint that was tested when it was done. The paint was not that bad for odd shapes but was really brittle so it showed the exaggerated consequences which was great for testing. The bore-matched (not even underbored) barrel had a breakage rate of about 5%. The overbored barrel had a breakage rate of about .1%. It was so significant of a difference it was astounding.
I had another paint that numbers weren't tested for that couldn't be shot out of a slightly underbore barrel without breakage (ie; 100% breakage) because it was so brittle. The barrel wasn't really under-bored that much. The paint was smaller than the barrel except it was slightly tighter than what I would consider to be an ideal borematch. Overboring allowed that paint to be used without breakage.
As an engineer I like exaggerated values trailing off to infinity. It often shows extreme events even if those events might never occur in use for the average user. The extremely fragile paint we used represented those infinity values. The normal user would probably never encounter those extremes so normal paint might act the same in an underbored barrel compared to a borematched or overbored barrel. In extreme cases however, the data does show that there is a difference. As the paint goes toward the fragile range the chances of breakage does go up for underbored barrels. This could be an issue for extreme tournament grade paint.Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.Comment
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my $.02, I prefer twist locks. since I came back to paintball in late 2013 I have not been happy with any paint/barrel combination I have tried regardless of which mag I was using. 2 years ago at Tuna ball I could not hit Big Evil from 20 feet away on the fort field in 3 or 4 tries before he put me out. back in the 90's using a 16 inch spaa barrel I could lob paint well past 150 feet accurate enough to at least make people duck or move while covering teammates, now days I can't get people to duck at 30 feet. last year at Tuna ball using a freak on my X mag I could not consistently hold an 8 inch group on the back bunkers on the lego field. I bought a Stella from Simon and was still getting lit up by people I could not touch.
now back to the topic of this thread.
Ty McNeer and maybe XMT can do it but not with just any twist lock. if someone will measure a freak back for me(mine are still buried behind my hunting gear) the standard insert is 5 inches long. add length for the breach and the threaded end and you need a donor barrel that has enough meat at the where the tip threads in to be able to cut the threads. most tw barrels have only have 4 inches at the back to hold in the body then they either taper or are reduced in diameter and most of these won't work. the only barrel that comes to mind as usable is the old bull barrels that used to come with them. then there is the cost. it will probably cost as much to have this done as it would to just buy one of the existing backs off of ebay or one of the bst forums. there is currently a new in package stainless one on ebay.
my other $.02.Comment
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