** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[stevewar]

It is probably the correct oring, but it might be on the large size. There have been cases where some of the orings were a little thicker than normal. This means a larger carrier size is needed so that the larger outside diameter doesn't force the inner diameter to be too small. Most orings that you get from AGD now are tighter in their tolerance specs so they rarely arrive requiring larger carrier sizes.

You have the option of getting a couple of extra larger carrier sizes, or putting a new oring in. If you don't have any other carriers at all, then you do need to get a variety of carrier sizes anyway. A new oring will probably be smaller, which will fit one of the smaller carrier sizes, so you probably won't need a carrier range past 2.0 or 2.5, but you may need the smaller ones down to 0. If you don't have any orings of the proper size, you should get some anyway (including a complete kit). You never know when a piece of dirt is going to get lodged in one of the orings and cause an intermittent leak. It is usually just a quick clean but sometimes it requires an oring change and you don't want to be without the proper ones for you mag in a time of need.

Thanks again for your time.. I ordered a spacer kit, and a xvalve kit. AGD is out of stock on level X bolt springs. if you have some, I'd love to purchase from you.

Oh, and I was wondering if you know the o-ring specs? There is a place not far from my house that all the do is o-rings. they might have one I can pick up until my kit arrives.

[Ando]

They're out of the silver one too? Ouch!!!

[athomas]

Take your oring down to the store. They can match it.

The regular level 7 bolt spring will work fine until you get a chance to purchase a longer level 10 spring. Contact Tunaman here on AO. He probably has some he can sell you.

[Nittany77]

Backing Washer

I recently purchased a used X Valve. It's in great condition, but it was leaking down the barrel, so I assumed that i needed to replace the o-rings. My question is about the backing washer. When i disassembled the power tube I noticed that there were 2 washers behind the carrier. I don't see anything about ever using more than one, but it seems like the carrier is not tightened down when I screw on the tip with only one. I removed the little black o-ring (just as test since it provides enough friction to hold the carrier in place) and I can hear the carrier rattling around inside the tube, like the tip is not long enough to push down on it. I'm not using any spacers yet. It seems to me, given my understanding of how this works, is that the tip pushes down on the carrier and by adding shims it squeezes the o-ring more, making a tighter fit. Should the carrier just be "floating" inside the tube. If tip doesn't even come close to the carrier the shims would seemingly do nothing. With 2 backing washers the carrier seems like is no longer loose, but I'm not sure if this is correct. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if i can clarify anything. Thanks!

EDIT: I did some more searching around and it seems my understanding of what the shims do might not be correct.

[Ando]

Just pull the other washer out. It's probably what's causing your leak.

[Nittany77]

So is the carrier supposed to float in the power tube? Or is tip suppoed to clamp it down?

[Newt]

The tip is supposed to hold it down against a spring deeper in the valve. The spacers (washers?) are what regulates how hard that spring gets pushed against. The oring carrier should not be rattling.

[athomas]

I recently purchased a used X Valve. It's in great condition, but it was leaking down the barrel, so I assumed that i needed to replace the o-rings. My question is about the backing washer. When i disassembled the power tube I noticed that there were 2 washers behind the carrier. I don't see anything about ever using more than one, but it seems like the carrier is not tightened down when I screw on the tip with only one. I removed the little black o-ring (just as test since it provides enough friction to hold the carrier in place) and I can hear the carrier rattling around inside the tube, like the tip is not long enough to push down on it. I'm not using any spacers yet. It seems to me, given my understanding of how this works, is that the tip pushes down on the carrier and by adding shims it squeezes the o-ring more, making a tighter fit. Should the carrier just be "floating" inside the tube. If tip doesn't even come close to the carrier the shims would seemingly do nothing. With 2 backing washers the carrier seems like is no longer loose, but I'm not sure if this is correct. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if i can clarify anything. Thanks!

EDIT: I did some more searching around and it seems my understanding of what the shims do might not be correct.

There should only be one backing washer.

The carrier does not need to be tightened in place. The air pressure in the chamber will keep it pushed forward against the powertube tip. The shims keep it farther back in the powertube. If there are too many shims installed, the carrier oring gets pushed back past the vent hole in the bolt stem and it leaks.

The tension on the oring is adjusted by the size of the carrier, which is why there are several different sizes in the level 10 kit. It is very important to use the largest one that does not produce a leak. One that is too tight will prevent the bolt stem from sliding freely in the carrier oring and can actually stop the bolt before it is fully reset or can prevent the bolt from moving forward when the sear is released. These issues are referred to as bolt stick. The leaking of the bolt during bolt stick is caused by the carrier and oring tension on the bolt stem not allowing the bolt stem to slide into the oring. It pushes the carrier assembly back to the backing washer and the bolt stem vent hole remains exposed and leaks air.

The best tuning involves removing all the shims from the powertube first. Make sure there is only one backing washer. Install the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak with your oring. If you need to change carriers, use the same oring each time. It is the oring that you are adjusting. You should not need to install any shims, ever. They only adjust how far the bolt needs to travel before it can vent air and reset. If the bolt moves past the sear catch at all, it usually moves far enough to vent air.

[athomas]

The tip is supposed to hold it down against a spring deeper in the valve. The spacers (washers?) are what regulates how hard that spring gets pushed against. The oring carrier should not be rattling.

There are no springs in the front valve section at all.

[Nittany77]

There should only be one backing washer.

The carrier does not need to be tightened in place. The air pressure in the chamber will keep it pushed forward against the powertube tip. The shims keep it farther back in the powertube. If there are too many shims installed, the carrier oring gets pushed back past the vent hole in the bolt stem and it leaks.

The tension on the oring is adjusted by the size of the carrier, which is why there are several different sizes in the level 10 kit. It is very important to use the largest one that does not produce a leak. One that is too tight will prevent the bolt stem from sliding freely in the carrier oring and can actually stop the bolt before it is fully reset or can prevent the bolt from moving forward when the sear is released. These issues are referred to as bolt stick. The leaking of the bolt during bolt stick is caused by the carrier and oring tension on the bolt stem not allowing the bolt stem to slide into the oring. It pushes the carrier assembly back to the backing washer and the bolt stem vent hole remains exposed and leaks air.

The best tuning involves removing all the shims from the powertube first. Make sure there is only one backing washer. Install the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak with your oring. If you need to change carriers, use the same oring each time. It is the oring that you are adjusting. You should not need to install any shims, ever. They only adjust how far the bolt needs to travel before it can vent air and reset. If the bolt moves past the sear catch at all, it usually moves far enough to vent air.

Awesome! Great explanation. It's funny how there's really no description of exactly how the spacers work. The instructions just say that they "control where in the forward stroke the air chamber starts venting", but not how, and the engineer in me wanted to know that. And the drawing of the assembly always shows carrier at the bottom of the tube, rather that pushed up against the tip. Anyway thanks for the help, I'll try this when I get home from work.

[Beebs89]

okay, need some help with this one.

2.0 carrier, red spring, no shims: leaks down barrel
1.5 carrier, red spring, no shims: will not shoot.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, no shims: shoots once, but wont recock and vents down barrel.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, 2 shims: doesn't shoot, bolt moves about halfway into breach and vents down barrel.

[athomas]

okay, need some help with this one.

2.0 carrier, red spring, no shims: leaks down barrel
1.5 carrier, red spring, no shims: will not shoot.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, no shims: shoots once, but wont recock and vents down barrel.
1.5 carrier, gold spring, 2 shims: doesn't shoot, bolt moves about halfway into breach and vents down barrel.

Keep the shims out. They won't help you and will only create leaks.

Make sure you turn up the velocity after you install a level 10 bolt system or install a stiffer spring.

Are you using the same white carrier oring for each carrier? Or, perhaps you have a bad carrier oring.

How old is your sear? A worn sear can cause the bolt to sit farther forward than it normally would. The bolt stem vent hole would be close to the sealing surface of the oring and could leak causing you to install a carrier size that is too tight.

[robertreed711]

Level 10 I think???

So I'm really new to Mags and I just picked up an RT classic and I think it came with a level 10. Not really sure because the seller didn't tell me that it had one and I've never seen one before.

Anyways, when I air it up it leaks down the barrel but if I partially squeeze the trigger it stops.

If anybody could give me an idea where to start trying to diagnose this I would greatly appreciate it!

here's a pic

[athomas]

So I'm really new to Mags and I just picked up an RT classic and I think it came with a level 10. Not really sure because the seller didn't tell me that it had one and I've never seen one before.

Anyways, when I air it up it leaks down the barrel but if I partially squeeze the trigger it stops.

If anybody could give me an idea where to start trying to diagnose this I would greatly appreciate it!

here's a pic

That is a level 10 bolt. You can tell by the smaller bolt stem at the back of the bolt.

The symptoms you describe are related to having too many shims installed in the powertube. When you partially pull the trigger, the sear pushes the bolt back a slight bit so that the exposed vent hole is sealed by the carrier oring. Remove the shims so the carrier oring will be farther forward and it should be fine. I wouldn't use any shims in the powertube at all.

[robertreed711]

That is a level 10 bolt. You can tell by the smaller bolt stem at the back of the bolt.

The symptoms you describe are related to having too many shims installed in the powertube. When you partially pull the trigger, the sear pushes the bolt back a slight bit so that the exposed vent hole is sealed by the carrier oring. Remove the shims so the carrier oring will be farther forward and it should be fine. I wouldn't use any shims in the powertube at all.

I'm sorry I'm so clueless but are the shims removed by removing the brass piece at the end of the powertube?