Creating Backspin

[Buff]

ya, I think using "undertow" bolts isn't the way to do it.....but never really got to test it......

I think the best way to do this is to find those old Lapco barrels that were built for the Z-body awhile back, and install an adjustable detent on the top.......or actually, use multipule detents so that the paintball is spun slower...........know what I mean?

[Dawg047]

Was the Z-body cocker threaded? Just wondered so if I find one of those old Lapcos, it would fit my Micromag.

[Buff]

yup, it was........
if u dont have a ULE.......just get a big bore barrel......they're cheap these days for mags

[Dawg047]

Ok, thanks

[ScatterPlot]

To put this ridiculous idea in perspective, I'll just say that the flatline barrel works because it was engineered by professionals with degrees in physics, infinite resources, and lots of time. You're a kid with a piece of tape.

Easy there thunder. You might wanna calm it down a little before posting anymore.

And also- people with ENGINEERING degrees engineer things. Not PHYSICS degrees. Yeah a physics degree might help, but if you want to make barrels become an engineer. They also don't have unlimited rescources, but that's another topic. And kids with tape is exactly what paintball needs- innovation from many sources with cheap materials.

Just in case there is any confusion on the physics involved, I'll explain for you. The flatline barrel curves downward. The centrifugal force of the ball moving forward exerts pressure on the upper portion of the barrel creating just enough friction to roll the ball backwards. Upon exiting the barrel and contact with the atmosphere, the reverse spinning motion of the ball displays what we in physics refer to as the "Magnus effect". This causes the air coming in contact with the ball to shoot under it creating lower pressure above the ball. Basically, it works on the same principle as an airfoil (an airplane wing). Tape would do nothing but screw up the polish on your barrel. Do not try this, please for your own sake. Tape...

Uhh, no. Flatlines definately curve UPWARDS. Have you ever even seen one? I mean even the cocker one would help- it doesn't have a sleeve on it.
And like I said before- it's a combination of (I think a roughened top, but I could be mistaken) and the fact that as the paintball rolls through, the air goes faster over the top, hence lower pressure up there and backspinning it. And no, not that many kinds of tape will hurt the finish on ANY paintball barrel out there.

Again, please don't ---- up your barrel by jamming tape inside it. Actually, go ahead... I don't care.

Whuh oh! Bleep alert! I sense a banxor in the near future!!!

PS-And why would you "jam" tape in it? Placing tape is more like it. It won't screw up the barrel.

[undescriptive]

thinking of it like the airsoft "barrels" why couldn't you take a normal brass barrel and drill holes only on one side, to simulate the same sort of thing?

nice and cheap to test, I mean, even if it only adds 10-20ft it's a start.

also, remember that the flatlines have to shoot 240ft/s or the balls start bursting in the barrel.....

[Buff]

also, remember that the flatlines have to shoot 240ft/s or the balls start bursting in the barrel.....

ERR> WRONG

lol

my buddt with his 98 w/ Flatline was playing with us in the woods, and we decided to chrono his gun...... 360FPS......ouch!

shooting fine too.

[Dawg047]

Thanks guys, I'm going to try to experiment around with some different things. Keep those ideas and responses coming. I love AO, so many different people, LOL

[NIghtStalker001]

Somthing I'm kind of curious about regarding this issue. Can someone tell me what has the bigger effect on the ball as its leaving the barrel,Is it the bolt that makes the contact and pushes the ball or is it the air.I'm assuming its a little bit of both but I wonder which one has the greater effect of the two.Are upgrade bolt better because they release air better or is it the actual bolt that makes the differance in how it contacts the ball.

[ScatterPlot]

The air hitting the ball is what propels the ball out the barrel. If you have a gun that can be fired without air (i.e. cockers, spyders, tippmanns, not electros or automags) then try firing some shots with no air. It won't make it out the barrel. And upgrading bolts changes the way the air is distributed, how it's released, how hard it might hit (the bolt moving foreward won't send the ball anywhere, but it will chop it). Some bolts you get will help prevent chops, like the LX. Others do it via other means, but it's mainly the bolt. What kind of gun are you wanting to get a new bolt for?




***One thing about the bolt hitting. In some guns, having air in it will cause the bolt to hit harder. In a mag, for example, the air pushing on the bolt drives it foreward, however it is not enough to send the ball any noticeable difference. On a blowback gun, the spring will push the bolt foreward, and the air will recock, so you will have no difference in bolt pressure with or without air in it.

[NIghtStalker001]

I want to make a bolt, Dawg047 got this all started and my brain is thinking what can I do or at least experiment with to try to find a different way of doing things when it comes to a bolt.We have made a bolt before that was only eye candy but I never thought about making one that can make a difference.(hopfully)...When I do of course I want to test it out to see if there is any difference.If not I will stick to the eye candy one.which I think alot of people will trip out on espesially Scenario players.

[AkumA]

*sigh* just feel like tossing a lit match into a puddle of gasoline...

backspin system (hopup) and bottom ported bolts (mentioned above) products have been introduced, yes. do they shoot a greater distance, sure. are they reliable...no.

tippman effect, who do use tippman products, don't even use the flatline system anymore llrc. reason is, shotting a high rate of bps can cause ball breakage, how i have no idea, sorry. local walkons who do have the flatlines, i've asked "how are they? actually work?" yes they reply, they work, but if you shoot 6-7+bps you'll have a ball break.

ask around the tippman forums about their flatlines. ask people about their experiences with zbodies. i'm sure you'll get the same results.

i believe, putting backspin on a ball is very similar to spining the ball like on a "rifled" barrel. the gelatin shell will rotate, but the paint inside will stay put. same theory, you're just "spining" the ball on a different axis.

now if you've taken physics, you'd understand this whole concept (its put into elementary).

now, the business viewpoint:
wouldn't you think if the zbody worked SO well, you'd be seeing it all over the boards today? this body came out .... oh jeeze atleast 4 years ago? tippman has only stood next to their flatline because it actually does work, to an extent. WGP has ended their flatline cockers in '00 (i believe) since there where problems having the barrel perfectly lined with the body.

also, big companies Dye, SP, Lapco, EVIL, ect, don't you think they know how to produce a barrel? don't you think they've put a good amount of money invested in "scientific testing" on backspin/rifled barrels? they have more than tape, machine shop, and a class in physics.


all in all, its been talked about before, turn the page, go onto something else. save your time, blah blah blah. go back to your highschool physics based textbook, and think of something better. don't get your hopes up.

wow. i typed way too long. early night from drinking = bored.

[Buff]

while I somewhat agree, the part about only spinning the shell dosn't cause a problem. The fill dosn't need to spin. Just the shell.

All it takes is paint that has a rough surface (RPS ETC), large bore barrel, and an adjustable ball detent in the top. I also think 2-3 ball detents will work better......less ball breakage, and more spin

[Dawg047]

Posted by AkumA:"all in all, its been talked about before, turn the page, go onto something else. save your time, blah blah blah. go back to your highschool physics based textbook, and think of something better. don't get your hopes up."

C'mon man, it was just an idea. I agree on what you said about the z-body and flatline and the whole marketing idea. However, I believe that the whole backspin idea with the flatline and Z-body idea could be improved upon. That is all I'm saying. I mean yeah, the flatline may work somewhat well on a Tippy and was a flunk on the cocker, but who is to say it does not work on a different marker like a Mag or Spyder. As far as I know, no one has put a flatline on a Mag and tested it. Same with the Z-body. The Z-body was built for the Mag and we all know the Mag is a totally radical design compared to the other markers out there. How do we not know that a Z-body made for a different marker would not work. Or about the whole detent in the barrel thing to create backspin. Now, there is the physics aspect about the Z-body or flatline not working well which would go for all markers and I think that is what could be improved upon. A better design or something. That is all for now. Thanks for all the responses, we got a good little discussion going here. Thanks again.

[AkumA]

while I somewhat agree, the part about only spinning the shell dosn't cause a problem. The fill dosn't need to spin. Just the shell.

All it takes is paint that has a rough surface (RPS ETC), large bore barrel, and an adjustable ball detent in the top. I also think 2-3 ball detents will work better......less ball breakage, and more spin

try this...

spin a raw egg, then spin a hard boiled egg (shell intact). which one spins "better"?