My Pneumatic Emag idea!!! Need Inquiries

[latches109]

http://www.jayloo.com/videos/show_vid/2320.html

I did it two years ago. no a double acting ram has less air consumption b/c the on/off returns it for you. Also, good luck finding a small single acting ram with a return spring force greater than 3lbs, and note the pressure required to push against such a spring exceeds all noids of acceptable size.

I'd be curious to see what happens using the ram in a double acting manor.

[y0da900]

I did it two years ago. no a double acting ram has less air consumption b/c the on/off returns it for you. Also, good luck finding a small single acting ram with a return spring force greater than 3lbs, and note the pressure required to push against such a spring exceeds all noids of acceptable size.

I'd be curious to see what happens using the ram in a double acting manor.

If part of the point of using a ram is that the on/off is not used to do the return portion so that you can hopefully lower overall working pressure, then yes, a single acting would use less air. IF you didn't use the return air port and relied on the on/off, then yes, it would use less air.

What does it not exceeding 3 pounds have to do with absolutely anything? And there are many solenoid choices out there that would be more than happy pushing through the kinds of pressure required for a single acting spring return. And incredibly tiny to boot.

http://www.airsoldier.com:8080/cgi-bin/mivavm?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-SY113A-SG-PM3&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS

good for 100 PSI

http://www.airsoldier.com:8080/cgi-bin/mivavm?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-S070C-SDG-32&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS

good for around 70 PSI.

An MPA-3 has a force factor of .1, so at 75 PSI, it would be exerting 7.5 pounds, a 7/16" bore ram has a force factor of .15, that same 7.5 pounds could be achieved with 50 psi, a 5/16 bore spring return would push ~7 pounds at 100 psi, which the first solenoid can handle. Up to a 5/8" bore should be able to fit fine inside a grip frame (.69" O.D.), have plenty of force to actuate the sear and on/off, and be returned by a spring taking the load off of the on/off as a return.

[BigEvil]

Hey Yoda, actually i ditched that first noid.. it would leak when I cranked up the psi to try to trip a RT on/off.

A couple of thoughts on the air-return;

-You can better control it with an air return (Via dwell) than you can with a spring return
and
-the point is to try to get the on/off to move as freely and easily as possible.

With this kinda of thinking though.. timing becomes a factor in the cycle.

[y0da900]

Did you have to crank the pressure up past 100 PSI, or was it leaking below what it was rated at?

Now I guess what is an extremely important question for you is this: Are you planning on using the ram to pull the sear like in an E-mag, or are you mounting it differently as to push it?

If it is pulling, then I definitely agree that double acting is the best method. If it is being used in a push fashion however, I don't think it would be of any concern at all. The air would be going to the return port the entire time it is in a resting/ready to fire position, the dwell will only be important on the firing stroke, which either pushing against air to evacuate that side of the cylinder or pushing against a spring, there shouldn't be any difficulty with either of those situations. And a spring should be fast enough that the on/off wouldn't have to kick start it, especially with a good QEV on the ram.

[Pneumagger]

if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.

Single acting pull ram with 4-40 threaded pull arm
Thread it's body into the MSS Solenoid holder.
Remove the Emag board and toss in an ION virtue.
Use a small MAC 4 way Valve and plug one output.
Use a non-ULE Emag rail - drill air passeages in it
thread the LPR into the underside of the rail inside the EMag battery Pack.
Put the battery beloe thw LPR.
Dance.

[latches109]

[QUOTE=Pneumagger]if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.

QUOTE]

you gave it a way.

[Pneumagger]

if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.

you gave it a way.

gave what away?

[BigEvil]

Its all about the T I M I N G. In essence, the on/off is the same thing. I want to do electro-pneumatically what it does now mechanically.

The worst that will happen if it is set up horribly wrong is bolt stick. Same thing happens on my e-frame if I make the mpa3 cycle faster then the sear leg is returning.

[Pneumagger]

Its all about the T I M I N G. In essence, the on/off is the same thing. I want to do electro-pneumatically what it does now mechanically.

The worst that will happen if it is set up horribly wrong is bolt stick. Same thing happens on my e-frame if I make the mpa3 cycle faster then the sear leg is returning.

With perfect timing, it will work just fine. I would personally just use a spring return ram because:
a)The emag on/off is perfectly capable of resetting at cycle rates well over 30bps (way faster than your gonna get the gen to gao anyways
b) it's a more compact setup with less hoses
c) less risky

Although if you used say a ULT on/off and double acting ram, making sure the bolt was always back before the sear reset - I'd imagine you could still hit mid 20's easily.

[wjr]

I realize that the whole point of BigEvils project is to make it as efficient as possible, but it seems like the easiest and most reliable way to do it would be to get a single acting ram, and then remove the spring and use the movement of the sear to return it. I can't really forsee anything going wrong that way... Am I right? This isn't as much of a suggestion as it is a question...

[RavishingEddie]

Hey I like your guys idea but how much more will all this add in weight to the Emag? What is the overall goal? The major issues is not rof or sucky board. To me the real issue is:

1. Weight reduction

2. Able to use Pnematic option on M mode and Electro on E mode.

All I would like to know is if there is a possibility that 3 way air noid could exist that would operate when a signal is sent but would also have a push button on the side to manually activate it when pressed in like a MSV. I don't think they sell one like that but since I already finished building my mag, I think it would be fun to reconstruct a custom air noid as a drop in mod just for emags. Even if I am unsuccessful I am sure I will learn alot and probably have other ideas.

[Pneumagger]

Hey I like your guys idea but how much more will all this add in weight to the Emag? What is the overall goal? The major issues is not rof or sucky board. To me the real issue is:

1. Weight reduction

2. Able to use Pnematic option on M mode and Electro on E mode.

All I would like to know is if there is a possibility that 3 way air noid could exist that would operate when a signal is sent but would also have a push button on the side to manually activate it when pressed in like a MSV. I don't think they sell one like that but since I already finished building my mag, I think it would be fun to reconstruct a custom air noid as a drop in mod just for emags. Even if I am unsuccessful I am sure I will learn alot and probably have other ideas.

as far as weight I would say:
clippard ram = MSS Solenoid
Air Solenoid = emag board
9v + LPR + board = 18v batery

so all in all your just modifying it for the hell of it. Not any real advantage in weight.

[RavishingEddie]

as far as weight I would say:
clippard ram = MSS Solenoid
Air Solenoid = emag board
9v + LPR + board = 18v batery

so all in all your just modifying it for the hell of it. Not any real advantage in weight.

Hey pneumagger I just have one final question. I was looking at the internals of my Emag and I saw that If I took off the Emag sear and solenoid I would have room to fit an MSV and MPA on the top portion and a air noid where the MSS would be. Anyway would I be able to connect the MSV to the MPA and make another tap on the MPA to run a seperate connection to the air noid.

If this would work I would not even need to replace the board. I would however need some kind of triangular or T splitter to split the air coming from the LPR to go to both the MSV and Air noid.

[latches109]

gave what away?

I was curious to see if he'd could get the timing correct.


Eddie, an msv is a mechanical 3way. the noid is an electronic 3way. Using both is redundant. Before you start I recommend drawing up a circuit diagram. Check voltage requirements before buying parts.

[y0da900]

I was curious to see if he'd could get the timing correct.


Eddie, an msv is a mechanical 3way. the noid is an electronic 3way. Using both is redundant. Before you start I recommend drawing up a circuit diagram. Check voltage requirements before buying parts.

It isn't redundant if he is hoping to be able to maintain the option to use it either with or without electronics, which I believe was the point. Be able to switch it to mech mode for a pneumag, and electro mode for an electro-pneumag.

I think that the hardest part of doing this would not be to get everything crammed in, but to make a way to switch between electro and pneu mode with the switch it has. It would need to either drop the switches out depending on which mode it was set for, or somewhow toggle which one was being activated by the trigger pull. Then again, I'm not entirely sure how the switch in an E-mag toggles between modes, so that may be mostly irrelevant.