can't understand ballers

[MANN]

your comparison is completely bogus

call up this same gaming company, and tell them that you and a couple dozen more people are wanting their gaming system to be 100% custom. Each of them a different color. Each faster, lighter, user friendly then any other previous gaming system. Tell them you want something that has yet to be mass produced. Then ask them about the waiting time.

Good Luck

The simple fact is that custom/good work is hard to find. It is even harder to find at a reasonable price. Your options are Time(give it to me quick), Price(I want it cheap), and Custom(lets get something nice). You can only pick 2.

[KC]

your comparison is completely bogus

call up this same gaming company, and tell them that you and a couple dozen more people are wanting their gaming system to be 100% custom. Each of them a different color. Each faster, lighter, user friendly then any other previous gaming system. Tell them you want something that has yet to be mass produced. Then ask them about the waiting time.

Good Luck

The simple fact is that custom/good work is hard to find. It is even harder to find at a reasonable price. Your options are Time(give it to me quick), Price(I want it cheap), and Custom(lets get something nice). You can only pick 2.

Great post. Also, it should be said, no one holds a gun to your head and forces you to pick at all. If you dont like it, dont pick. But if you pick... dont cry about not getting to pick 3 times.

-Kristian

[Lohman446]

I was under the impression everyone knew at the beginning this was going to be a customer supported project rather than investor supported.

[Dark Side]

your comparison is completely bogus

call up this same gaming company, and tell them that you and a couple dozen more people are wanting their gaming system to be 100% custom. Each of them a different color. Each faster, lighter, user friendly then any other previous gaming system. Tell them you want something that has yet to be mass produced. Then ask them about the waiting time.

Good Luck

The simple fact is that custom/good work is hard to find. It is even harder to find at a reasonable price. Your options are Time(give it to me quick), Price(I want it cheap), and Custom(lets get something nice). You can only pick 2.

Wonderfully said.

[MournBlade]

I had to wait 7 months for a sandisk titanium 1gb thumbdrive. When it was all said and done the company refunded 75% of the original price. I no longer preorder unless I'm certain of the release date.

[CoolHand]

This must be an attack on logic Paintball customers, as the description of communication doesn't fit Devil Den?

If so, its a poor comparison between main, stream readily available electronics, being manufactured by some of the largest electronic companies in the world... And a one of a kind, hand built, Electro-Pneumatic frame.

Now before this post is picked apart piece by piece let me add a few shields I'm sure you will find someway of penetrating.

By mainstream? I mean 41%+ of US homes have a console
By large companies? I'm talking about Sony and Microsoft
By one a kind pneumatic frame? I'm talking about the Logic E-UMF
By picked apart piece by piece? Just. Stay. Tuned.

-Kristian

I don't think he's talking about me.

1) My pre-order has been going on for much longer than a year (oh how I know that).

2) All the design and engineering on my project was done weeks before I started the pre-order, and have not changed since. All my in-house parts were manufactured and waiting on outside vendors six weeks into the project.

The big problem as far as I can see with PB pre-orderes is not that folks are thieves, but rather all the outside vendors are liars. Call and ask a board company how long it will take to get 50 boards, and they'll say something like a week or maybe two at the most. But it will actually turn out to be more like six or eight (or not at all). Same with ano. With the exception of GBA, every single ano house I've worked with has said X days turnaround, and it's always more like X weeks, or X months. NEVER on time. All that compromises the initial timeline, and is impossible to accurately predict.

Couple that up with crummy profit margins to begin with, and 99.997% of all pre-orders would be non-starters without the pre-order. The risk to return ratio is simply far too close to one (or a number less than one) for a small business to go out on that limb without deploying some sort of hazard mitigation device.

So you have two options, spend a crap load of money up front on an iffy project and maybe end up going out of business over it, or spread the risk out over yourself and the customers who really want the product.

Of course, the more sanctimonious (and least in touch with reality) amongst us will decry this as horrible unethical and just plain evil business, to which I will simply reply. Bullpies!

It's horrible and unethical if you lie about what's going on, and you try to defraud people, but when you lay it all out up front, and you tell them exactly what is going on, it is no longer a shady deal by any means. You lay out the terms clearly and they either agree and buy into the pre-order, or don't. No one is forcing them to do anything, and no one is misrepresenting what they are getting into.

What Rabid Et Al is doing is twisting the argument around to make it seem as though all pre-orders are destined to end as the Devil Mag debacle did, which is complete and utter horsecrap, and he knows it. But that doesn't serve his intentions at the moment. If there is one thing I have learned about him and a few others on this forum, it is that they very rarely say anything that is not calculated to elicit an exact response.

That all said, I am beginning to suspect that Rabid's tirades are more driven by having lived a life that fell far short of his expectations, rather than any well defined goal or reasoning. He's grumpy, and therefore the rest of the world ought to be grumpy as well.

At any rate, whether he likes it or not, I and GeForce will not go away, and I at least, will deliver what I promised, as soon as I am able to. My actions and my monetary expenditures back what I say 100%. I will lose money on my pre-order, but I will deliver what I said I would.

Rant and nay-say all you like, don't make me no nevermind.

[AirAssault]

I'm just glad Im here to buy the items people want to get rid of WHEN they get them..... Works for me.

[Lohman446]

Couple that up with crummy profit margins to begin with, and 99.997% of all pre-orders would be non-starters without the pre-order. The risk to return ratio is simply far too close to one (or a number less than one) for a small business to go out on that limb without deploying some sort of hazard mitigation device.

So you have two options, spend a crap load of money up front on an iffy project and maybe end up going out of business over it, or spread the risk out over yourself and the customers who really want the product.

It's horrible and unethical if you lie about what's going on, and you try to defraud people, but when you lay it all out up front, and you tell them exactly what is going on, it is no longer a shady deal by any means. You lay out the terms clearly and they either agree and buy into the pre-order, or don't. No one is forcing them to do anything, and no one is misrepresenting what they are getting into.

The little I am familiar with your preorder yours is one of the VERY FEW I have ever seen done honestly and up front. As I saw it I can sum it up.

1) You told customers that it was a no go without preorders - if they wanted this project they had to preorder.
2) You told customers it would be a nasty wait with numerous pitfalls along the way that slowed things down ahead of time.
3) You stayed well ahead of the curve in communication, and told your customers up front what to expect in communication.

Most companies are not up front about it. Most companies do not allow the customers to know they alone do not have the investment capital to make it work. Most companies do not set and meet expectations as far as what should be expected communication wise. Then again, I expect if we took the time you have in communication alone and divided your profit amongst those hours we would find you are working for several people who have to have a custom product for a wage that is ridiculously low, not to mention the risk to reputation and headaches associated with the project.

The problem in general is most people (and companies) in paintball don't do this. They are new so they don't have a reputation to protect and are probably short lived in the industry. As others pointed out companies outside of paintball (I'll snag the Scandisk example) have a reputation and future sales to protect.

[RogueFactor]

If you cant post here with some respect please dont post.

LOL. That rule sounds familiar

Yeah, I wonder when PTP is going to do that run of custom MicroMag bodies that were supposed to have been started in November/December last year. Buyers have been waiting!!!

[Chronobreak]

rogue, or the original pneuframe with specs and a pre order list. the only difference btwn ptp and gforce in that aspect is gforce accepted money for what is/was basicly a phantom project.

we can point fingers all day, but at the end one is probly pointing at nearly everyone.

I jumped on the karta body when DW released them, am i a sucker...i like to think not however that could ahve also ended up turning out ugly for various reasons.

I gotta give props to those dealers here who ahve done research and made assurances that the pre orders go as planned and everyone gets what they deserve in a timely manor.

[halB]

There's ALWAYS a difference between products that are made by machines in some godless factory in china, and a product made by the hand of a craftsman. If the threadstarter can't see that, then I hope they'll be happy with McDonald's every night. After all, THEY get the speed right.


Dangit. The threadstarter is someone I respect. There might be more to this than I thought...

[RogueFactor]

rogue, or the original pneuframe with specs and a pre order list. the only difference btwn ptp and gforce in that aspect is gforce accepted money for what is/was basicly a phantom project.

Whether money was accepted or not, delays happen. Lets not be hypocritical. I seem to recall MANY folks upset about the shipping delays of White Wolf, yet you were one of his biggest supporters.

[going_home]

Hmmm

LOL. That rule sounds familiar
Yeah, I wonder when PTP is going to do that run of custom MicroMag bodies that were supposed to have been started in November/December last year. Buyers have been waiting!!!

Well I see your point but in the case of the PTP bodies, you need to go back and look at the thread. PTP never initiated the thing.
AO member Dend78 called them and asked them what the possibility would be to get another run of some new form of the PTP unbodied Micromags done.
He started the list thread. Tracy did come in and post in the thread a few times but I dont believe she ever promised a firm date on when the thing would go down.

So I dont think that case really applies here.

I'm pretty sure Steve was just antagonizing the G-Force customers .
Its the whole patent thing again, and in my humble opinion (even though I didnt buy one)
that, even though he has the right to do it, it wasnt helpful to PTP (if anything it harmful to PTP). And it hasnt added anything of value to AO.

Honestly, I dont know for sure what he would say, but I dont think Forest would appreciate Steves post because the antagonism is not helping Pro Team Products at all.
On the contrary. And this is coming from a PTP Micromag fan too.

[Chronobreak]

i am a wwa dealer, i have an obligation to make sure any of his or my customers are happy(within reason)

i dont recall me defending him, but as i said offering to help and find the problem if there is one.

there is a pretty big difference.

its like somone saying they are unhappy wiht TMS service, while its not you(or is it) you are somewhat obligated to help and give responces where neceary which i know for a fact you have done as a question in responce to an Email from a member sent to TMS

custom work is also different thana a pre order, i dontsee the hypocracy...atleast on my end

--on a sidenot micromags are what got me into paintball, from the time i saw one i thought it was the most beutiful marker ever.

im not sure what else needs to be said, i think rogue questioining me simply supports rabids post and examples.

atleast the bickering and arguing over semantics gives us something to do.

when all is said and done fingers pointed, money spent, time wasted, I still have no pneuframe

[jenarelJAM]

Custom projects always take longer than you think. I mean, I'm only 19 and I've seen this firsthand many times in my life. All you can do is find what you want and be prepared to wait for it. Good people will do what needs doing to get them done for you.

For instance, I just received email confirmation that jared@DC is sending my robtown valve for my viking after almost half a year since pre-order. It was originally supposed to be done about 4 months ago. But he got it done. I tip my metaphorical hat to him.