ever wonder...

[AGD]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

[Ninjeff]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

[Indignant]

if i had a mustache i'd twirl it

[jade_monkey07]

Twirly twirly

[bound for glory]

well, thanks for the word , tom. hope is a good thing

[chafnerjr]

Interesting

How very interesting. AGD jumps in and says, "more to come" and then we get a picture of Mr. Twirly mustache... I love this forum In any event I'd like to buy more things from AGD like a pewter XValve but don't we all love the custom nature of the mag? I'll admit that I am building my first Mag from scratch right now. I am having so much fun finding all the pieces I need knowing that I will be the only one around with a setup like mine... I think a lot of the mag community feels this way. AGD is great and I wish they were a little more active, but I'd still be searching for the custom stuff for my marker just to be different and to show off.

[halB]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

What if I told you I had a design for a LP mag (yes, it would be LP!*) that would be, conceivably, the smallest and lightest gun on the market. Oh, and it's all mechanical, with the same trigger pull and weight of an electro. Oh, and it uses the automag design which you already hold the patents to. And it would allow you to redesign and resell a whole new line of level X's. And, what if I told you I've been trying to give this idea to you (all I want is a gold mag and a mill ) I just have no idea how to go about handing the design over to you. Clearly there are legal issues and all that crap which get in the way of business.


Marker designs haven't changed since 2k. Don't you think it's time for the next generation?


*I feel that LP is all a load of hooey anyways. It's just a nice byproduct of the redesign that makes it LP, not anything purposeful.

[AltogetherAndrews]

I'd imagine there is more to it than just marker design these days. My background is in visual design and development of marketing material, and as such I'm really noticing an increasing emphasis on this aspect of the paintball equipment industry. Not always with optimal results, mind you, but there's still the matter of being visible and making yourself and your product both attractive and accessible to consumers in a sea of competing products. Which adds a cost, and an extra step between making and selling the product.

Even reseller sites are as much image as they are product these days, and evidently the cost of image and strong branding is balanced with using the image to sell things at ridiculously high prices.

It's interesting to see that actual fields don't seem to have really been swept up by this though, but I guess most operate on either local familiarity or legacy so I suppose it's not that strange.

Sorry, this seems a bit tangential, but I would imagine this is a real hurdle. Everything from developing strong branding to something as seemingly simple as web site accessibility factor into this.

[VTLO910]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

We all have life issues, but I'm glad to see "The Man" loves us enough to let us know he is listening...

Tom, we know that you know your loved here!

The world, and AGD still needs guys like you...



Hope you enjoy the Humor Tom...

Although, I would totally VOTE Tom for President of the US...!

[halB]

I'd imagine there is more to it than just marker design these days. My background is in visual design and development of marketing material, and as such I'm really noticing an increasing emphasis on this aspect of the paintball equipment industry. Not always with optimal results, mind you, but there's still the matter of being visible and making yourself and your product both attractive and accessible to consumers in a sea of competing products. Which adds a cost, and an extra step between making and selling the product.

Even reseller sites are as much image as they are product these days, and evidently the cost of image and strong branding is balanced with using the image to sell things at ridiculously high prices.

It's interesting to see that actual fields don't seem to have really been swept up by this though, but I guess most operate on either local familiarity or legacy so I suppose it's not that strange.

Sorry, this seems a bit tangential, but I would imagine this is a real hurdle. Everything from developing strong branding to something as seemingly simple as web site accessibility factor into this.

My background is history, and I particularly studied the history of advertising. Keep the Aspidistras Flying. You are right. But this is more out of necessity.

Let me tell ya'll a lil vignette. The first towns to industrialize in Britain experienced something new. All of a sudden, there were more goods than there was demand. This was an inversion of the market that had existed since the dawn of time. Let's take combs and the town of... Surrey as an example (random example, they probably never made combs in Britain judging from their hair...).

Big ole factory moves in. They produce 20,000 combs. But the town only has a population of 10,000, and half of them already had combs. Now here is what happened. The factory closed down. They had too many combs and not enough customers. In fact, they never even looked to the next town over to sell their combs. This is how stupid people were back then, and this is the beginning of advertising.

There was too much of a product and not enough demand. So they advertised to do two things. To get people from the next town over to buy (expanding your market/audience/whatever) and convincing the people who already had combs to throw their combs out and buy new mass produced combs (creating a fake need in the consumer's mind that wasn't there to begin with)

So what does this have to do with paintball? Well, even though the sport is growing, I would hazard a guess that there are now about 2-3 paintball guns per player. These include the ones being produced right now in factories in China and all the used guns out there that would be suitable for recball play.

Now, the factories could create new guns, and people would buy them just like people bought guns with eyes even though they already had paintball guns - because guns with eyes were such an advancement that the consumer could readily see their need for it - without advertising.

But, there are no new advancements. The guns are merely lighter and sexier each year. Eyes, anti chop bolts, electronic frames, "LP", they're all old hat. There is no self evident need for these new guns.

So, the companies must create this need in us. I pity the fool who has an 07 ego and feels the need to buy the 08. But there are plenty of morons out there like that. And these morons are impressed by these newer, sleeker, svelter guns. You better believe that companies are spending millions on your visual marketing - they sure as hell aren't spending it on R&D.


So what do combs and morons have to do with AGD? Well, anyone remember the 99/2k autococker? Anyone who was around back then can easily distinguish between the old cockers, and the newer ones. They redesigned the internals AND the externals.

And in the same year, Mr. Kaye released the automag 2000. Can you distinguish between the newer mags and the older ones? Only by looking inside the powertube! Same rail. Same bead blasted body. Same everything on the outside. Mr. Kaye, you did not do yourself a favor by releasing the exact same thing. I mean, would a TINY bit of milling, like some cool geometric patterns, REALLY be that terrible a thing to do to your guns?

Here's the conclusion that I've been trying to get to: Yes, you need to use "visual marketing." But you don't need to spend millions of dollars to hire some ignorant consultant who's guesses are just as cromulent as your own. Just offer deluxe editions that have better milling and coloring. The ULE bodies were a great step, but perhaps too late to save the old mag brand. It appears that Mr. Kaye is already well aware of everything that I and you have said. The tac-one is the example. It's just... get some new designs will ya! How many designs were created in CAD when those slug bodies came out? Is it really impossible to buy the rights of those off the creator for like 2 grand?

And, you know what would crush ANY visually engineered gun? A gun that was so revolutionary that people KNEW it was better without advertising. A gun that people wanted without advertising. The last gun that pulled that feet off was the Matrix. Talk about a hideous gun. A giant shoe box of a gun who's design left a LOT to be desired, it was still snatched up at a fevered pace because that thing shot ropes! I mean, when I first saw one of those shooting online my jaw hit the ground! THAT was a leap forward. THAT was innovation. THAT didn't require a lick of advertising for people to know what it was, what it did, and why they needed to own it.

Which is why I am here. I am trying to hand over this design - For a new gun that represents a new generation. A gun with a single tube design that is only ~.75 inches long. The only reason why I'm on this forum typing my fingers off is because I have no other way of reaching or impressing Mr. Kaye - aside from posting my plans online which I would be a fool to do.

tl;dr: You are right altogetherandrews. Mr. Kaye does need to work on visual design. That is the one area that he has not kept pace with. But even more than that, there is always the need for that new gun, that new leap forward. Visual design creates a need, an urge, that shouldn't exist because a rational person should know there is no difference between gun A and gun B. A new leap forward creates a need that is real, that speaks to every person.

[trevorjk]

if i had a mustache i'd twirl it

post of the thread

[Twistedpsyche]

hahahah.. cromulent....... love it!!!

[Chrishew09]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

That that statement makes me smile

[Warwitch]

Well I am still around and listening to what you say. As you can imagine the obstacles are many and large. But I can tell you its not all over yet.

AGD

I think I just filled the cup..... Thats the best news Ive heard since Jim's release from the "institution."

[mostpeople]

Well I'll chime in and give my 2 cents on this issue. My opinion can pretty much be summed up by the Sp-1. Its an obvious smart parts ripoff of the Tac-1. It's technically electrical, simple, and has a 'low force bolt' just like the Tac 1. Not to mention.. it looks just like the damn thing. However when Smart Parts can sell them for 150 or whatever they go for, and AGD sells theirs for close to 500, its easy to see who will get picked. Nevermind the fact that the Tac-1 is obviously superior in design, doesnt require and batteries, could probably be run over by a semi and not feel it etc..etc.. it doesnt matter.

This is the problem Tom, AGD, and we all face... the X-valve/lvl 10 system is probably the best paintball firing mechanism in the world (obvious brown-nosing or statement of fact?), yet the valve itself costs twice what the whole SP-1 costs.

So until They can make X-valves and lvl 10 bolts for 100 dollars, and R/T Pro's for 150-175 dollars, you are not going to see people buying them like they buy the SP markers. Same goes for the ion, 200 dollars gets you a 17bps ramping electro thats simple and easy to use.. again nevermind the fact that its a piece of crap. And in this world of disposable markers, the automag isn't very competative.

Am I off base here? Or do you guys agree?