Soon you will be supporting Smart Parts when you buy a Quick-Release feedneck...

[Smart Parts Sean]

This is the type of stuff that alot have issues with. It's like patenting the idea of using the microswitch in the marker ONLY if there is a ELECTRICITY involved. When in actuality, there is no way for the switch to work without. So putting a SWITCH in a gun is fine... and putting a board in a gun is fine... but it's SP who holds the marbles to put a SWITCH AND A BOARD in the same gun. When we all know that one without the other is just useless!!!

I mean, come on you have to at least see that much. It's like patenting a car... AND a wheel!!!! But then FORD coming up with the all magical combination!!!

I'm pretty sure that most of us here feel that that kind of "patent" infringement lawsuit crap is where SP took the nose dive. Patent the feedneck... and then patent a ball passage apparatus.... Then take it and say OH LETS HAVE A FEEDNECK THAT LETS BALLS GO THROUGH IT!!!! Just how I see it...

DM

It is not like Ford. He was not the inventor of the car, just the mass produced version of it. And you can probably count hundreds of thousands of patented inventions in the Auto Industry alone. There is more than 1 way to fire a paintball gun electronically as well just as there are many ways a vehicle can travel on 4 wheels. It just needs to be thought of and obviously there is not many engineers in paintball companies to do it. Heck, KEE was working on a gun that was completely electronic with no air!! Right now, the electronics in paintball are taken for granted. But you know what... 12 years ago everyone said "Crap!! that is so easy, why did I not think of that?" when we came out with the PVI shocker. Same thing with a lever action feed neck as well.

Like I said earlier, to come up with new inventions in technology in paintball (i.e. a paintball gun), it is very very expensive. How would you feel if you spent millions of dollar designing and making a paintball gun and you did not patent it and everyone else knocked it off cheaper by going to china, thus putting you out of business? Heck, the mold to even do the platics can run 40K-200K on 1 gun!! You take that across 10,000 guns, and it is much cheaper the more you sell. But the up front money is not pocket change by any means.

[punkncat]

If this were the Nation... you would need more than a fire proof suit. I for one have been enjoying this discussion. And it has been nice not being bashed. I would like to thank the Automags.Org community for listening and have a mature discussion.

Oh don't worry. The flammage will come to the extent that it is allowed on this board. I have to give props to the mod staff here who will whip out the ban stick in a MOMENT should anyone cross the line. They maintain a pretty tight ship. But within those confines the SP bashing goes on here as well.

We get no kick back on after market parts unless it is a board. The reason we even make some after market parts is because the other stuff out was crap. Like our QEV. The clippard is what people mainly used and believe it or not, it is rate for 90psi and below use! We had to make something. We would rather the aftermarket companies make their money and come up with their own upgrades. It is better for the dealers and better for the consumer in the long run.

Yeah, I just think its great that this marker is made in such a way to allow such to go on. I recently was given one to hold for a friend and am having a great time upgrading it and actually seeing a positive difference from the addition of an "upgrade" which for several years now has not meant anything performance wise.

[SR_matt]

ok notifying some on they are violating a patent and giving a C&D letter, ok not the same exactly but its the exact same result: the person will stop or you will sue them.

SP was the first to make electro guns? no, wrong, end of story wrong. first electro gun was a garage project by a random player, PVI had electros before SP, and i know there were other companies with electros.

frankly im getting way to lazy to read through all of this because all it is is the SP employee trying to convince us they are in the right and trying to say they were the first to bring these things out when we have many facts backing up the facts they were not.

-matt

[insixdays777]

TK Got out of the sport because his passion was gone. Our passion is here greater then before. If we cared about money, we would be selling in all the Wal-marts and so forth which we do not. We have changed focus to helping the dealers grow and make money. And I have been working on a project to help build more potential players throughout the US. Which you will be seeing more of what I am doing over the next few years. The paintball industry is still rather young and you have to realize that there is a learning curve for everyone and people do make mistakes. I think that SP is one of the few companies that care about the long term of our industry. I have worked in stores, fields, other manufacturers.. and Billy and Adam really do impress me. They may not be the best people to talk to in person all the time, but that is why they have me. And I have enough passion to make up for anyone around here not having any

History will tell... I really do wish you guys the best for the sake of the sport. I want my grand kids to play, (and not "have" to play with an SP marker) ....hope all works out...

but no matter what happens with you guys(SP) I know that when my grand kid picks up one of my automags I can tell them the story about AGD, and Tom Kay. What a great company AGD is and how they helped start and shape the sport with integrity. And then I will take them out and buy them 2030 AGD Automag!!! But be warned...SP as it is going will be known as the company that almost killed this sport, caused many great companies to stop producing awesome markers and bullied their way into the money driven passionless company that they are remembered by. Is SP's legacy worth it.....?????


Thanks Sean for showing up, Intelligent debate/comments are always welcome from both sides...and yeah I do have a Vibe, really nice 100.00 buck marker. Just remember this entire debate and what is happening to OUR industry is larger that any one company, it is truly about paintball being around for our grand kids to play....we must come together.

[SR_matt]

Well I for one am pretty impressed with what the Ion has done for the aftermarket business' that have chosen to make parts for it. Now I don't know if they have to pay a kickback as it were to SP for making parts specific to that marker, but MANY people are gaining from the inherent "upgradablility" of that particular piece.

I fully agree that if SP hadn't patented things someone surely would have. It is fairly obvious that it remains profitable to "play ball" with SP. Dye is just one of many examples of a company that does not appear to be hurting for the relationship.
Like it or not, there is a lot of money to be made out of paintball, even still. I think more that just getting over it and getting on with it, a lot of people would rather concentrate on how "evil" it is, dwell on it, and make a whole lot more of it than it is. Instead of blaming poor choices or a downturn in the market, or stagnation of R & D, its ALL SP's fault that nothing new has come out, and that company (insert name) is not around or making (such and such) product.
Lol, you guys are like the Mob...everyone just has to pay for protection....

Now let me don my fireproof suit for "defending" you.

the ion didnt do anything for the after market business it just brought back what the auto cocker did. i will give it to the ion that it has been a decent thing for the new players and those playing on a budget and has a boat load of upgrades but it really isnt anything new, just filling a hole of a product that went away

-matt

[ThePixelGuru]

I am unable to give you exact numbers due to non-disclosures. I like my job and I would not like to get fired. Well you are talking about a high end gun, what is $30.. or even $40? On an EMAG, that is 3-4% of the price if the price is based on $1000. Could it be lower? Yes. Could it be higher? I have not seen it.

But my question is, was it $30, or even $40? It's just weird to me to see so many Smart Parts reps hinting at royalty numbers and then talking about non-disclosure agreements when you ask for hard numbers. Either you can talk about it or you can't - if you're already giving ballparks, I don't understand how you can say you can't talk about it.

HPA - why would TK want to patent that? It helps him more not too because the AM runs better on HPA. So, it is a two way street. Option 1 - patent it.. make money in the long run on a risk that HPA will one day become dominant in the industry. Option 2 - Don't do it and be able to sell more Automags in the short term. That pretty much sums it up. Same thing goes with the Pin valve as well with Tippmann. As far as anyone coming up with the idea of an electronic gun, yes anyone can. But we beat everyone to the punch. Do you have any idea how much it costs to even produce a gun?? I would assume that the PVI Shocker cost easily a million dollars to bring to market. Why would you not want to patent it?? You run the risk of putting yourself out of business. I have a general idea of what it costs to bring our newer guns to markert, and it is very expensive. I have spoke with TK through the years as well, and I remember him saying back in 1999 that he was burnt out of paintball. But that was due to politics well before the legalities came in.

Well, when AGD brought the R/T to market, no one else made HPA tanks. They made HPA systems for their markers in order to use those markers, they didn't rely on anyone else. Players, however, were scared of HPA (regardless of who made the tank/reg), so the R/T was a tough sell. Patenting it wouldn't have hurt them. Mr. Kaye and the rest of the AGD team, being the smart folks they were, knew that faster markers would require HPA. The smart business move would have been to patent the thing and make everyone else pay though the nose if they wanted fast markers that didn't freeze. Same goes for Tippmann - it's not like people were just going to say "oh well, Tippmann's got the patent, I guess we'll stick with the powerlets." The industry was heading that way already, and Tippmann could have had everyone by the balls if they'd patented the pin valve for CA tanks. To say that other companies wouldn't have used those and it would have flopped is basically the same as claiming that since Smart Parts patented the electronic trigger that no one else would make one and that the idea would flop in the market. As for the PVI Shocker, I'm not arguing that Smart Parts shouldn't have a patent for their markers (though that case could be made about the PVI Shocker in particular). But there's a difference between patenting a marker design and a basic, off the shelf component used in a configuration that's nothing new.

Stifling is an opinion that you have. I see it differently. I see gun manufacturers coming up with newer and more creative ways to design guns. I think the Mini is a great example of that. Part of the claim of our patent includes a micro switch along with a board. Not the switch by itself. It has to be inconjunction with the board and solenoid. Look at Eclipse, they use an optical switch. And WGP could not have patented the pneumatic ram because Glenn Palmer was the first I believe.

Yes, the Mini is a great example of that - which is probably why Smart Parts filed for a patent on gas going through a gripframe. It's tough when you've got nothing to strongarm them with because they've found a way around it, so Smart Part's solution was to file for a gas-through gripframe patent, ignoring the fact that Tippmann had been doing this for decades. We'll see where that one goes. Oh, wait, there will probably be a non-disclosure agreement, so I guess we won't. Concerning the microswitch being attached to a board and solenoid, connecting a few off-the-shelf electrical components isn't innovation, either. That's why everyone did it that way - not because they were copying Smart Parts, but because it was the obvious thing to do. You need a trigger, so you use a microswitch. Then you need a controller, so you use a board. Lastly you need something to trip a sear, so you use a solenoid. Each of these is the most obvious solution to the problem, and it amazes me that the USPTO didn't see it that way. I guess that's why the Garders are the bigshot corporate lawyers and I'm not. Concerning the Palmer/Orr controversy, that's not my point. The point is that patenting the pneumatic ram on a paintball marker would be ridiculous. Of course, the other thing that bears mentioning is that I said WGP could have gotten away with patenting the pneumatic ram - Smart Parts has proved time and time and time again that you don't actually have to be the first to do something in order to be the one who patents it.

In everything there is out there, of course there is marketing. And you know what? That forward seal does help with the blow back. No doubt about it while reducing drag on the bolt by not having it on the bolt itself. Such as a matrix. The oring on a matrix bolt actually will hit the next ball in line as well. If you are using really brittle paint, it can crack it. Also, do we do the same lame maker every year with new milling?? You may be confusing Smart Parts with Dye. And Dye even bought there patents and engineered nothing originally.

"Seal forward technology" is a joke. It's marketing mumbo-jumbo, and the translation is "o-ring." It's a patch for having lousy tolerances on a marker, because rubber is more forgiving than aluminum. And yes, I would say that I haven't seen anything really "new" from Smart Parts since the Shocker Turbo - which I never like to begin with, because I consider cheater boards to be bad for the industry.

You are correct, which is why they failed in business. They were engineers playing business man. If they had an actual business person running the company, they would still make guns. Matter of fact, they still can make guns. There was never a C&D letter. Why do you think Aaron and his parent do not talk anymore??? Stubborn Engineers...

This, I think, is the biggest difference between us. I believe that business and ethics do not always have to be at odds with each other, while you seem to believe that you should do whatever you can to get ahead, so long as it's legal. I believe that what Smart Parts did to AKA was wrong, while you believe that it's fine because the patent office was on your side. if I'm wrong please correct me, but it seems to me that you're a believer in using the system to its fullest to get ahead.

That is an opinion that you have that I am sure people share with you. That is for another discussion because you and I can go back on forth very lengthy on this. I think it is the industry as a whole is to blame, not just Smart Parts in short. The market is to blame as well. You and I should meet some time and kick back a few beers and discuss this in length because I do not have the time to write a novel... lol. Going to any scenario or big games this year?

I'd enjoy that, actually. I don't have any plans to go to any as of yet, but if I end up going to one that I know you'll be at I'll drop you a PM or something so we can meet up. I do think that we both have the best interests of the sport at heart, but just different beliefs in how we should work to advance the sport.

Side Note - I think it is the lack of engineers paintball companies employ in their business personally as to why the innovation is being stiffled. We employ several full time, which is probably equivalent to the rest of the industry combined.

As Rogue pointed out, there were a lot more engineers in the industry before Smart Parts got all litigation-happy and drove them away. The industry these days is more hospitable to businessmen than engineers. It's a shame that it didn't work out to have engineers running these companies, because I found the industry to be a lot friendlier, more interesting and more innovative before the businessmen took over.

EDIT - Your theory is based on this. I do not like Smart Parts and the way they do things. The Economy in paintball in bad right now, so lets try and figure out a way to blame it on Smart Parts. That is very closed minded and you are off base with your reasoning. You are taking something and forming and opinion based on biased feeling. There are many other reason the amount of new players have gone down hill. I think it has a lot to do with airball fields. As paintball goes back to the woods, I think you will see a larger increase of new players as well. Field owners see money with people shooting paint. They forget that the customer comes for an experience and they fields that offer that experience are doing rather well. Some even having record numbers in years.

It's true that I do have some degree of bias, but that's one of the reasons I said I couldn't prove cause and effect on that point. There is, however, something fundamentally flawed with the status quo of an industry that's losing customers, and Smart Parts at the very least supports that status quo. Maybe they're not wholly to blame, but they certainly are responsible for a good degree of it. I'm glad to see paintball moving back into the woods, but the most I've seen Smart Parts do for that transition is the SP-8, which is just a new body kit for the Ion (although for some reason Smart Parts says it gets better range).

Thanks again for your time, and I do hope that we can have a face-to-face at some point. A couple of cold ones could do nothing but good for this conversation.

[JesseB]

ICD still kept producing guns. AKA and AGD both decided not to produce guns as a result of it. The royalties are pretty minimal when you consider how expensive those guns are. AKA was in more trouble than AGD and ICD because of the dual solenoids of our first gun patent. Smart Parts NEVER said "OMG OMG, OUR PATENTS." We were never public about any of it. The only thing we have been public about is the signing on of various vendors which is more recent over the past few years. We never went public with press releases about our patents. It was the public who made it public and various other companies going to the internet for support.

The Shocker SFT was also a learning curve as well. We learned alot and I stand by all of our guns 100%. Heck, I even refused to shoot an SFT myself because of small little issues I had. But then again, I am anal when it comes to the guns I shoot. More so then most people. It does not make the SFT a bad gun. The NXT fixed all of my small issues with the shocker. As far as customer service, it has gone up ten fold in the 4.5 years I have been here and helped with a lot of that change as well. If you see my at an event, and you still have an SFT, bring it over. And I will be ore than happy to take care of you.

Let me mail it to you and get it fixed.

[pump]

Should we not defend our intellectual property? No one before used sleeves in a barrel kit...

Didn't OTP come out with the first inserts Yes they screwed in, but they still were sleeves...

OTP did have a very short insert that screwed in reverse threaded. It was a few inches long. Most of the acceleration of the paintball is in the first 6 inches, hence the freak system. The OTP was a ball sizer meant mainly for cockers so that the ball would not roll out the end.

so does the OTP count as a sleeve? but does the threads keep it out of the "sleeve" definition

sorry if im bringing up anything old



also are there any court records for any paintball related IP case or any legal discussion?
i would like to try and read them

[dstud2000]

TK decided not to take the EMAG further. He gave up and therefore in my opinion, gave up on his customers. He had his passion beat out of him by business. He should have let someone else run his company so he could do what he loved. Business can beat you do pretty good which is why I will never own my own. All they had to do was pay a small royalty fee, call it $30 (not saying that is it, but I am sure I am not too far off.



Is it limited? I think that if our patents would not be there,

1. someone else would do it, an probably manufacture outside the US. That is the nature of business
2. Heck, our low-mid end gun range could be over ran with cheap knock offs of each other. Look how many crappy spyder wanna be and cocker wanna be's have been out over the years
3. Hindsight is truly 20/20. I think patents will help stabilize the industry in the future.
4. And yes, they were that stubborn. AKALMP were all engineers running a business, and you know how pig headed engineers can be.



The only thing we import now are plastics. All metal components are manufactured in our state of the art manufacturing facility. We even brought the boards back here to the US. Our solenoids are from Japan I believe.



We still have stainless steel inserts in stock

And that is your opinion. I think that Smart Parts in the 4 years I have been here has done quite a bit for the sport and will continue to do so.

Sean thanks for addressing some of the things I brought up, I appreciate it. As for engineers being stubborn, well you are right, I am a welding engineer, thats what I do for a living....if I wasn't stubborn at times, the welders on the floor would run me over at times....I may have to make a call about some of them inserts though. If you ever bring back the nerve or something along the lines of the shoebox shocker well I may take another look at SP. Until then well I will just watch and see what happens.

[Smart Parts Sean]

LOL. You mean the engineers SP ran out of the sport? You hired your engineers with the money you receive from the licenses??

Or did SP hire engineers because of claims like these:

OK. I finally watched this. It is actually rather funny I must say.. ROFL...

But. In reponse to this, you have to realize that was many many years ago. I am guessing at least 15. Things were different back then in paintball. Did Billy probably think that back then?? Probably. But in the paintball industry, we have learned a lot in 15 years. Heck, even science changes a lot in 15 years. You do something, and you learn from it. I do not understand what the big deal is. If we put out the video today, I would understand getting flamed... but that was 15 years ago plus when there really were not any engineers and everyone was back yeard engineers. That is how the industry started... I am still laughing from the video tho.. lol.

[Smart Parts Sean]

ok notifying some on they are violating a patent and giving a C&D letter, ok not the same exactly but its the exact same result: the person will stop or you will sue them.

SP was the first to make electro guns? no, wrong, end of story wrong. first electro gun was a garage project by a random player, PVI had electros before SP, and i know there were other companies with electros.

frankly im getting way to lazy to read through all of this because all it is is the SP employee trying to convince us they are in the right and trying to say they were the first to bring these things out when we have many facts backing up the facts they were not.

-matt

PVI did NOT have elctros before SP (another thing people think is fact, but it is wrong). We went to them and both sides work on it together to design and build it with Billy heading it up and financing it. Hence, why the original patent was co-owned by both companies.

Garage product... prove it. I know I can, but why say things without backing it up with facts?? Otherwise it is just hearsay. My favorite line in on-lin arguments is "because i know!"

I am not here to "convice" but rather to give out correct info as I see it. I used to be a big time SP hater, and I have learned the error of my ways. Alot of info that is out there is BS (and a lot of it due to me as well). Smart Parts never defended itself in public, nor made any of the information of what was going on public back in the day. So what happened is that you ended up having a lot of people "assume" what happened. And those assumptions are now thought of as "fact" when in truth they are not. I have been the only one ever from Smart Parts to defend Smart Parts publicly concerning that patents and so forth. Why am I doing this?? Because I think everyone should have the info of what really happened.

[Smart Parts Sean]

Let me mail it to you and get it fixed.

Not a problem. I will even do it myself

SMART PARTS
ATTN: SEAN SCOTT (not returns)
100 Station St
Loyalhanna, PA 15661

If you ship UPS
123 Paintball Park Lane
Greensburg, PA 15601

[Smart Parts Sean]

so does the OTP count as a sleeve? but does the threads keep it out of the "sleeve" definition

sorry if im bringing up anything old



also are there any court records for any paintball related IP case or any legal discussion?
i would like to try and read them

Think of it this way... There is only so much you can do with a golf club, but there are hundred of patents doing it different. That is why they call it innovation. You can have something first, but if someone makes it better and improves the design further, you can get a patent on that as well.

OTP also went out of business years ago. Our Freak are sleeve and we market them as sleeves. Most of your acceleration is in the first 4-6 inches which is what our sleeve is. The OTP was mainly a ball sizer meant to keep the ball from rolling out. They basically did it differently. I am sure there are lots of info to get all info on court cases, but you have to find them. I really do not know where to find it all.

But my question is, was it $30, or even $40? It's just weird to me to see so many Smart Parts reps hinting at royalty numbers and then talking about non-disclosure agreements when you ask for hard numbers. Either you can talk about it or you can't - if you're already giving ballparks, I don't understand how you can say you can't talk about it.

First of all, you cannot say so many sales reps hinting royalty numbers because I am the only one authorized to discuss this in public. None of the other sales reps really post and I am the only one that discusses it online or in public. As far as what I can talk about as far as numbers comes down to the way the non-disclosure is written. And within those bounds are what I post.

Well, when AGD brought the R/T to market, no one else made HPA tanks. They made HPA systems for their markers in order to use those markers, they didn't rely on anyone else. Players, however, were scared of HPA (regardless of who made the tank/reg), so the R/T was a tough sell. Patenting it wouldn't have hurt them. Mr. Kaye and the rest of the AGD team, being the smart folks they were, knew that faster markers would require HPA. The smart business move would have been to patent the thing and make everyone else pay though the nose if they wanted fast markers that didn't freeze. Same goes for Tippmann - it's not like people were just going to say "oh well, Tippmann's got the patent, I guess we'll stick with the powerlets." The industry was heading that way already, and Tippmann could have had everyone by the balls if they'd patented the pin valve for CA tanks. To say that other companies wouldn't have used those and it would have flopped is basically the same as claiming that since Smart Parts patented the electronic trigger that no one else would make one and that the idea would flop in the market. As for the PVI Shocker, I'm not arguing that Smart Parts shouldn't have a patent for their markers (though that case could be made about the PVI Shocker in particular). But there's a difference between patenting a marker design and a basic, off the shelf component used in a configuration that's nothing new.

The R/T was brought to market years after HPA even entered the market. Paintball Mania and Air America were the top 2 systems. I personally had a 114cu 3000psi raptor system back in 1996. I believe the R/T came about 98-99. Heck, by 99, Crossfire and PMI could have even started to make tanks! I remeber I also had a mania screw in system, and you were not able to use them on R/T's because they were a much higher pressure.

Also, the rest of your post is opinion and not fact. You are making opinions based on what you think could have happened, etc. And a patent is a patent.

"Seal forward technology" is a joke. It's marketing mumbo-jumbo, and the translation is "o-ring." It's a patch for having lousy tolerances on a marker, because rubber is more forgiving than aluminum. And yes, I would say that I haven't seen anything really "new" from Smart Parts since the Shocker Turbo - which I never like to begin with, because I consider cheater boards to be bad for the industry.

Seal forward technology is NOT a joke. I think the name is personally.. but in a spool valve system, it makes more sense to have an oring on the inside of the breech instead of having it on front of the bolt. A patch for lousy tolerances?? That was not it all, by any means. It was a way to reduce blow back and wear and tear on the bolt. Bolts wear, but having an oring wear instead of the aluminum made more sense, because if the bolt wears on a spool valve elecrtropneumatic gun, you will get leaks. Plain and simple. I do not know why you are blowing it way out of proportion. Now, with the Turbo... Turbo was cool. It was the first gun to push the rules in tournaments. Who did not like it back then when it came out?? There is more to that story as well. But, the cheater boards were a problem, like the KM2 designs boards when they first came out. Also, look at break out mode and ramp today... SPAWNED from cheater boards. Most of the "cheater" elements on electronic boards that were big came from Bob Long, not Smart Parts.

Yes, the Mini is a great example of that - which is probably why Smart Parts filed for a patent on gas going through a gripframe. It's tough when you've got nothing to strongarm them with because they've found a way around it, so Smart Part's solution was to file for a gas-through gripframe patent, ignoring the fact that Tippmann had been doing this for decades. We'll see where that one goes. Oh, wait, there will probably be a non-disclosure agreement, so I guess we won't. Concerning the microswitch being attached to a board and solenoid, connecting a few off-the-shelf electrical components isn't innovation, either. That's why everyone did it that way - not because they were copying Smart Parts, but because it was the obvious thing to do. You need a trigger, so you use a microswitch. Then you need a controller, so you use a board. Lastly you need something to trip a sear, so you use a solenoid. Each of these is the most obvious solution to the problem, and it amazes me that the USPTO didn't see it that way. I guess that's why the Garders are the bigshot corporate lawyers and I'm not. Concerning the Palmer/Orr controversy, that's not my point. The point is that patenting the pneumatic ram on a paintball marker would be ridiculous. Of course, the other thing that bears mentioning is that I said WGP could have gotten away with patenting the pneumatic ram - Smart Parts has proved time and time and time again that you don't actually have to be the first to do something in order to be the one who patents it.

More opinion based on what everyone else says... Ok. the truth.

The luxe was a gun that has been in the R&D process for about 3 years. It has been in developement way before the mini was even thought of. So, it is a moot point. Also, the mini uses a hose while the Luxe has actual milled chambers throught the frame and body. Which is what the patent is for. So, also a moot point since it does NOT involve the mini.

The Garnders are NOT lawyers. They are really good business men without a doubt. And when you bring up the penumatic ram and electro switches, yes... in today's viewpoint it WOULD be ridiculous. But you have to realize that this was years ago. When the very first pump was converted using a 4 way pneumatic switch and ram, everyone at that time went.. WOW, WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THAT?? You are taking things from years ago and trying to put it in today's context which does not work. in 1996, yes.. everyone went "WOW, WHY DID I NOT THINK OF THAT?" I, being one of them.

Thanks Sean for showing up, Intelligent debate/comments are always welcome from both sides...and yeah I do have a Vibe, really nice 100.00 buck marker. Just remember this entire debate and what is happening to OUR industry is larger that any one company, it is truly about paintball being around for our grand kids to play....we must come together.

And I 100% agree. We must come together and stop having a divsion in paintball. Put down the egos and the BS and just sit down and talk.

[SR_matt]

PVI did NOT have elctros before SP (another thing people think is fact, but it is wrong). We went to them and both sides work on it together to design and build it with Billy heading it up and financing it. Hence, why the original patent was co-owned by both companies.

Garage product... prove it. I know I can, but why say things without backing it up with facts?? Otherwise it is just hearsay. My favorite line in on-lin arguments is "because i know!"

I am not here to "convice" but rather to give out correct info as I see it. I used to be a big time SP hater, and I have learned the error of my ways. Alot of info that is out there is BS (and a lot of it due to me as well). Smart Parts never defended itself in public, nor made any of the information of what was going on public back in the day. So what happened is that you ended up having a lot of people "assume" what happened. And those assumptions are now thought of as "fact" when in truth they are not. I have been the only one ever from Smart Parts to defend Smart Parts publicly concerning that patents and so forth. Why am I doing this?? Because I think everyone should have the info of what really happened.

i dont know where the mag is i have that has the write up (it was a good 4 years ago) but i do remember the story. a guy took an automotive solenoid (door lock one IIRC) because a team mate had broken his wrist and couldnt pump the gun (sterling IIRC). the guy mounted it so the noid would pump the gun for him.

ill have to dig later if i have time but i do remember that it was the earliest anyone could find an electronic paintball marker and IIRC it was even early in the semiauto life

i debate your claim that the seal forward stuff is logical/needed/what ever, 4 of my 5 markers do not have orings on the front of the bolt and i have no blow back on any of them (mag, mech cocker, sniper 2, spyder, and the only one with an oring is my original pgp). on a gun designed with that in mind, which wouldnt take much effort), the tolerance doesnt even need to be very tight, just has to be designed right. i can see why a gun like the pgp would use an oring because of the air paths but 99% of gun designs have air coming forward out of the bolt which is one of the biggest things to reduce blow back (since the air is already going forward its not going to turn around when it can go forward more easily). reduced bolt wear? well i really think it is more likely for you to snap a bolt before you wear it out as long as the body and bolt were finished correctly. heck delrin basically takes even more of the wear issue out since while the delrin can wear it wants to glide along more. the only people i could see that would wear out a bolt to any excessive amount would be those playing every weekend and shooting multiple cases a day, and even then the bolt/body should not wear out until years of use later.

-matt

[paint magnet]

Honestly I cannot say that I have ever been impressed with Smart Parts with regards to innovation. It seems to me they would rather throw a bunch of technical BS against the wall and hope it sticks long enough to sell to uninformed players and then contradict themselves later to sell more products.

Take for example:

The BOSS paintgun (yet another Nelson clone)

The Magic Box for AutoMags (which was supposed to increase range by 15 yards)

The PVI/Shoebox shocker, which was always advertised and promoted as shooting further and more accurately with a better trajectory due to its closed-bolt design. (I won't even go into the fact that a powerfeed on a closed-bolt gun should raise a red flag, since a closed bolt gun shouldn't have air blowing back into the ball stack). Then, all of a sudden, SP rips off the spool-valve concept from the Matrix (which had loose similarities to the Mag), makes an open-bolt gun which now shoots just as well! Either way, they were lying about the advantages of a closed-bolt design, or lying that the new Shocker shot just as well.

Other BS lawsuits, which included prohibiting Powerlyte from having a window cut in the side of their barrels to view the inserts. I mean how do you patent a non-functional hole in the side of a tube?

I will give Smart Parts credit for the original Max Flo though, one of, if not the only product, that actually did what they said it would. But, in true SP fashion, it was replaced with a model of a completely different design which was then promoted as better.