what do you want in a marker????

[punkncat]

To deviate for just a moment.....I know a lot of people are not crazy about ramping, and want "one shot one pull". I actually enjoy ramping markers and am really glad that the decision was made to reduce that ramp to the current 13.3 ramp for many series. To a non competative player, it may be a non issue. I know that when I play rec ball, I prefer to use a mechanical marker.

On to what I want:

Personally I think that the Invert Mini has pretty much embodied everything I want in a marker. It is simple to work on, small, light, efficent. The only thing I do not like about it stock per se is that the board is not as adjustable as I would like it to be. It has not been enough of an issue to actually go spend the $100+ on rectifying it, but I sure do enjoy the features available on the Virtue boarded markers I own.

So to summarize:
Light, efficent, no external air lines, easy to work on, highly adjustable and customizable electronic board. I like a single tube design for the profile. Big trigger guard for ease. Steeper than 45* frames, as I really like 90's. LP operation for depth into the HPA tank.


As another side point, I am still suprized to see people clamoring over "accurate" markers. As if one design is inherently more accurate than another. I suppose that its a throwback to the cocker and low pressure hype that has been made over the years. But that is another discussion, for another thread.

[ManInBlack]

ManInBlack: you just made me very happy, I was hoping someone would come out recognizing ergo early on. So I have to ask, what makes you comfortable/uncomfortable with a maker? Does a stacked tube marker suit sighting better than a single tube design? What if you could sight directly down the barrel the top of the barrel with no obstruction? Rails/aftermarket drop forwards allow for stock adjustment, is a fixed ASA point like the Mini's a real drawback, or are you willing to buy a tank to suit your needs?

Oh man, there are so many thing I could go into here. I prefer a single tube design because it's smaller. Vertical feed or powerfeed doesn't make too much of a difference because I'm comfortable sighting across both the side and the top of the gun. as for gun shape, I think the most comfortable gun I currently use is my classic RT. The foregrip is just far enough ahead to make aiming easy. I didn't think I'd like that because I hate the way tippman 98's are set up, but the tippman's front grip is angled and the RT's is vertical. Also, the RT's front grip is textured rubber, so it's very easy to hold onto, gloves or not. I have wood grips on mine, which is also nice for a right hander. If I could get the wood grip shape in the textured rubber or otherwise stickie compound it would work really well, and I would feel more comfortable running/diving/etc. with it. Also, the center of gravity should be just in front of the grip (with hopper and tank attached).

As for drop forwards I am used to a large drop because I like to tuck the gun right into me. It helps me with aiming and with holding the gun steady while shooting. That being said I use a cocker with a fixed tank mounting point like a mini, but only in woodsball where there's more room to move around.

I've never shot a gun with anything but a 45 style grip, but I think I'd like something more vertical or beyond(Z/Y grip like), especially in tight setups. Maybe something like the Chimera, but not as tall.

Here's another thought on grips. It might be more comfortable, if not a little awkward, to have a grip rotated slightly. Clockwise for lefties and counter-clockwise for righties. Know what I'm talking about? I figure if your arm/elbow is cocked out from your body and the grip faces straight forward then you have to bend your wrist back to get it inline with the grip to hold on and shoot. Make sense?

[GoatBoy]

ManInBlack: It's nice to see someone thinking seriously about ergonomics for a change. Let me toss another tidbit for you to think about: the trigger should not pulled backwards to fire. It should be on the side of the grip frame. That way you don't have to curl your fingers backwards to fire (which is like making all the keys on a keyboard facing forward so that you have to press them toward your body to type). Instead, the trigger should run perpendicular to your palm. If you shoot with only one hand (like I do since I use a q-loader), the trigger only needs to be on the right side of the grip frame.


Anyways, to the original topic...

I basically want an Invert Mini with a dovetail sight rail on the top of the body, y-grip, warp left, the ability to mount a q-loader in the side position (like w warp), and a foregrip that has been changed up (needs to go a little forward so it doesn't run into the y-grip, and while they're at it they should use the extra space to fix the shape of the foregrip back to normal tube size).

In black.

Optional: body can also accommodate a normal hopper feed neck on top, CO2 compatibility.


The Mini is really close to what I want, but it lacks a few critical items.


I'm pretty sure I'd be mowing people down with a gun in this configuration.

[Hilltop Customs]

man, I had a huge reply to each one of your comments typed out(talking 2 pages single spaced), and my sister, who is visiting, closed the damn window.....I'll have to retype it tonight if I get the chance.

Keep them coming guys, every single reply has been excellent and most appreciated!!! Feel free to go off on tangents discussing points, build on things other people bring to the table....try not to be negative, but if you see something that you dont agree with point out your opinion, but always remember everybodys opinion is right.

[tech-chan]

You working on a project...nice. And I also like your options
Do you have a thread on this?

Thanks man, and I'm afraid I don't. I'm smack in the middle of the design and I think I've hit a snag. Otherwise it's looking and working beautifully.

[snoopay700]

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

[Sundown]

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

Yeah I'm also looking forward to looking at your project as well.
I really give you guys 2 thumbs up to be actually ''building'' a marker... You guys got skills man.. I would not be able to do that haha..
no skills for that at all haha

[MANN]

an xmag with better reflective eye & about 1-2lbs lighter

[Hilltop Customs]

Oh hilltop, youve seen my design in the workshop, thats about as much as ill tell. I hate this keyboard, the apostrophe doesnt work.

hehe tell me about it I'm stuck on a laptop keyboard right now.....I hate these things. Sorry, I'm not typing replies on this thing its too much of a PITA, I already have a paper to type up....I swear my progress is slower on this thing than my normal keyboard because of correcting all these little mistakes. Just goes to show ergonomics extend well into performance and isnt just about being comfortable. Oh and this computer doesnt have firefox spell check

[Wicked_Silence]

Well to get in on this late, my main wants in a marker would be:

1, Comfort level. If it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands, I'm not going to be able to be comfortable using it. A good center of gravity helps with this and so does a grip/frame that can be made to fit my hands. Some guys have huge hands and others have the exact opposite. Kinda like sizing of gloves, ya got smallthru to ex-large, so why not have grips/frames the same way?

2. Mechanical. I know I'm probably going to raise some temper levels with this but.... I feel that if ya gotta rely on a battery and an electronic board to shoot fast, then your not doing the work, the board is. Ramping and full auto are just a waste in my opinion. I mean, when are you EVER going to need to shoot 20+ BPS to shoot 1 guy? I've seen guys walk a mech trigger and they can get just as fast as these guys with all the electronic gadgets, but its because they've played with their marker for quite some time and figured out what works for them and they are COMFORTABLE (see above comment) with it. People these days seem to be in a big rush and think that firing fast makes them good.

3. Efficiency. I play some day long games and nothing makes me madder then when I get into a good firing position but run out of air long before I run out of paint. At that point, ya either act as bait or call yourself out and go gas up again.

4. Durability. I like markers that can take abuse while playing. I mean I'm not going to go outta my way to destroy my marker, but if I'm runing along and take fire unexpectedly and need to get into cover, I don't have to worry about how my marker might take the fall, or if it will still be intact when I bring it up to return fire. I saw someone run past a door to get to the wall on the far side and in doing so, his marker did impact the wall. The E-trigger on his A5 (I think thats what it was) literally desintegrated and he was left walking off the field with the wires, board and battery just hanging there.

5. Customizable. I gotta say that I personally hate uniformity in alot of things and my marker is included. I want it to be as unique as I am. So variable set up options for a marker, kinda like what someone already said about having your marker made to order. A variety of accessory options in aftermarket parts would be a big plus too.

[Stayhuge]

Stayhuge: Thats interesting, I've never looked too much at the apex, have to give it another look. I like your list because it makes decisions about trade offs easy to answer. Say a change in design will decrease efficiency, but increase consistency...your list would say you want the best consistency even with a slight decrease in effiency. I have a question for you too....I see reliability is high on your list, reliability and amount of maintenance are closely related so: When does reliability/maintenance become too much of a hassle? (is lubing a before a day of play too much to ask?)

Yea, the Apex definitely surprised me. I still have a regular 14 inch tip that I use here and there, but the Apex is fun to play around with sometimes. As for the reliability and maintenance factors, I agree that they are closely related. Low maintenance markers, cough, Mags, cough, generally are more reliable, but I don't have a problem with maintenance. If you were to tell me that if I took the marker apart after every game, and cleaned the old oil, and put some new oil in there, that I will NEVER have a problem, then I would agree that that is a reliable marker. The best part that I find about Mags and Tippmanns, is that they require very little maintenance, and almost never fail. They are the BEST backups in my opinion, and for most of us, the best main gun. I like the simplistic nature of them. Turn off safety, pull trigger, and ball shoots. For me, accuracy and reliability go hand in hand. Ideally, I want those the most, and am willing to trade the other three factors for them. Fortunately, with my Phoenix Mag, I only have to trade efficiency. I think it only weighs a little over 2 lbs. Which to me is pretty light. And is looks pretty cool. Not trying to keep plugging mags (well maybe a little) but really the only problem that I see with them is that they are inefficient. One thing that I must say is that the way that they built the emag/xmag is PURE GENIUS. Being able to switch from electronic to mechanical with the flip of a switch is really amazing. And the design is so simple.

[snoopay700]

hehe tell me about it I'm stuck on a laptop keyboard right now.....I hate these things. Sorry, I'm not typing replies on this thing its too much of a PITA, I already have a paper to type up....I swear my progress is slower on this thing than my normal keyboard because of correcting all these little mistakes. Just goes to show ergonomics extend well into performance and isnt just about being comfortable. Oh and this computer doesnt have firefox spell check

Oh, i love firefox spellcheck, it's saved me a few times from words i don't know, although apparently it doesn't recognize Firefox unless it's capitalized, which i just found out as i typed it. Anyway yeah, i actually tried to tweak my design and then realized that it wouldn't work as well and so i've yet to change it back, now i just have to work on ergonomics and such, where everything goes, air flow being the most efficient it can be, making sure it will withstand 3000 psi to adhere to the good old double safety rule, and i think that's going to be the part that might kill it, so i may just have to make it run at a lower pressure. I also have to add in a special part so i can use one specific o-ring from a mag and also make sure that there are no spots where a vacuum would slow it down. So yeah, i'm not really anywhere near ready to make a prototype yet, mainly because of school and girls.

[Empyreal Rogue]

What am I looking for in a marker?

A Cyborg.

[Hilltop Customs]

Trying to type this out quick while I have a couple minutes, then back to writing reports....didnt even get a chance to work on my model

Toll:: Would you consider a mechanically firing marker if it had eyes?....dont have time to go in depth, but just use your imagination....

tech-chan: I was considering a full auto, or fire on pull and release....but if these options are included, I want the ability to switch between back to semi....it could be a simple part change, but I would want it to require a max of 1 screw removal. Also I'm kind of worried about these types of modes surpassing field/tournament limits.

Sundown: I agree completely on the different designs for different players, thats why I started this thread I know what I want, I'm interested in everyone else wants. Thanks for joining in and sharing!

punkncat: I knew no airlines was coming....If I may ask, do you see yourself ever purchasing another marker with external airlines? I hate the idea of airlines, its just one exposed area that can leak, be caught on stuff, and generally gets in the way. I agree the Mini is something to benchmark features against, Ive wanted to buy one for a long time just to get a better look at them.

ManInBlack: Man your description of grips just about convinced me into looking into making custom grips for my project, specifically with an ergonomic shape. I really like your idea on twisting the grip....if this prototype works out, I might just try something like that as an alternate grip type. That would angle your wrist out slightly so the tank would be able to be high and tight to the grip frame, reducing the overall size of the marker.

GoatBoy: YES! I have thought that same thing so many times when adjusting triggers way out.....my fingers feel cramped on most frames and I tend to pull the trigger more toward my palm then back toward the frame like the trigger pivots. If you could extend the trigger out and pull it more like your tapping your fingers on a table.....imagine how comfortable that would be. We copied a trigger which was used for firing 1 bullet at a time extremely slowly by paintball's standards. CO2 is something I really want to be compatible with, but I doubt it will happen with the size of 1 seal that has the possibility of freezing, but then again it might be ok. PS: I like what you want....a lot.... I bet youd like what I'm working on....a lot

[Hilltop Customs]

Apparently my post was too long and had too many images, so I'm breaking it apart....

Thanks man, and I'm afraid I don't. I'm smack in the middle of the design and I think I've hit a snag. Otherwise it's looking and working beautifully.

If you want to share, I'd be glad to help if possible, if your uncomfortable dont feel pressured, I wouldnt want to put anyone in that type of situation.

MANN: mmm xmags so sexy....if you could change 1 thing about the xmag, other than what you mentioned, what would it be? Other than putting it back in production

Wicked_Silence: Your not late, I like how you think of sizing.....what about grips like the wrap around grips, but have them in different sizes? Might have to be a variant and not completely wrap around or something(patents ) I agree with you about durability, Ive dove into trees plenty of times(couple night games, long stories :rofl: ) and I would be pissed to have come out with a broken marker, I'm not going to be cutting crash frames thin just to save a few grams....not that theres anything wrong with that, but removing material can only go so far before you start seeing failures

Stayhuge: I agree about mags, I have a classic in my bag which has been sitting there for 2 years. I would bet $100 that I could pull it out of the bag, put 3 drops of oil in the ASA, air it up and within 20 shots there would be no leaks. Finding another gun that will convey that kind of reliability is impossible.

snoopay700: I agree about the safety issue, I am thinking of including something like a blow off valve if pressure exceeds max input pressure. I dont want the back half of anyone's gun turning into a hand grenade. Blow off valve might work for you also my girl is 200 miles away, school is whats killing my progress....good thing its over in a couple months, but I want to have the first prototype done before graduation.

Empyreal Rogue: Is there absolutely anything on the borg that your even partially uncomfortable with? any improvements anywhere?


I know I probably missed someones post, but I tried to get them all....sorry for the short replys , I had a lot more to say, but not enough time to say it. Once again, these replies have been nothing short of amazing, keep them coming