"NEWS" Nelson Paint to continue producing oil based paints!

[punkrex]

I love nelson paint and veggie oil is just fine with me.

more about PEG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_glycol

[Chronobreak]

drg, where do you play, ide like to contact your local field/s if possible.

im not gonna argue anymore as your insistance that this is not a certain type of paint when i can compare fills/colors/useage times/as well as test such as water and degredation is an insult to not only my intelligence but others in this thread as well.

ide love to tell you exactlywhat is in nelsons paint, but i dont have the $ for a chemical analysis to be done, i can only provide visual and impirical data.

like i also said this whole entire thread is not aimed at nelson, but i used them to get the thread going as they are perhaps the most deceptive among manufacturers as to what is actualy in the paint.

heck, Evil is great paint but it stains....and you dont see me going on about it. whynot. well its a high end tournament and its made fairly clear its a permanent/fill.

as far as other fields having a problem, trust me its not just an isolated problem

so even if this isnt canola oil, or is olive oil, or corn oil or hybrid type fill, the mark it leaves is undeniable.


why is nelson and no other manufacturer selling a cleaning agent?

perhaps they feel guilty about something, or know the paint is hard to remove?

just food for thought

[Beemer]

[russc]

There's a photo taken from the PbNation news thread about bunker scrub/Nelson paintballs.

Damned if I know what's in Nelson paint, drg. Maybe it's some sort of low viscosity wax. It looks like oil to me. Now, keep in mind that it is only certain brands of Nelson paint: Nelsplat, Affordaball, Hotspot and Precision. If you are only using higher end Nelson, you won't see these issues. EKG, Special Forces, Hemorrhage and Anarchy are fine from what I've seen.

I'll do my best to make a test of nelson's effects this week, if you can give me an indication of what you'd like to see I'll do my best to provide some hard evidence.

In the meantime, try not to dismiss the claims about Nelson without having visited a field that uses it as FPO. I regret not making a video of my AT-10 after taking it out of storage this week. I had used it at a scenario this summer where they sold Affordaballs and Nelsplats exclusively. I had left some broken Affordaball in the magazine, and over time it had hardened into a waxy, sticky substance that would not come off with soap and water. I had to scrape it off the inside of the mag with a screwdriver. The magazine release, which is a slide on the side of the magwell, was stuck fast because of a hit taken in the area that had sprayed underneath the pull tab and hardened like glue. I've had barrels that have required acetone to remove stuck material from the inside. I have pants that can't be washed. There is a layer of dirt mixed with the wax/oil from Nelson that sits on the fabric and can't be removed by washing them with detergent.

Something is wrong with the paint. The damage can be seen, plain and simple. You were right that simply pointing out that Nelson has more oil in a kool-aid test can lead to people jumping to conclusions. However, Nelson is different from other paintballs, and that test seems to provide a clue as to why.

[drg]

The only way a bunker can possibly accumulate that much residue on it is if it's never washed. I've seen bunkers that went unwashed gather residue like this, but it's not just low-end Nelson doing this (which is not a common paint in these parts).

I mean look at it, the bunker is covered all the way around ... that's simply not going to happen over a short period of time. Heck with low end Nelson you hardly get breaks on air bunkers at all.

I think WARPIG's Bunker Scrub article explains pretty well about the white pigment in paint, and it's not just Nelson that does it. It also illustrates a simulated cleaning.

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/misc/bunkerscrub/

In my experience higher end paints with thick fills leave the most residue, low-end Nelson is pretty thin paint that doesn't mark very well at all, let alone leave heavy white residue.

[russc]

Let's forget about the dyes for now. Yes, white Nelson paint stains, but I haven't seen a white paint that doesn't.

As for the bunker, I'd say that's a case of low end Nelson plus a dusty field plus summer heat. Trust me when I say that residue doesn't come off easily. You can take most of it off, but without some sort of solvent you aren't going to get it all off at the end of the day.

The bunker pictured below is cleaned after every use. You can see that the Nelson picks up dirt which helps it cling and form a gummy mess. In this tournament we used Procaps and borrowed the bunkers from a field that used Nelson. To clean the procaps we used squeegees and then threw some water on the bunkers. It washed right out. All the bunkers remained very sticky though, because of the Nelson residue. If you leave any Nelson residue, it will turn into gum and becomes impossible to remove.

In the case of the bunker I posted above, yes it has been neglected but keep in mind that if it were procaps, it would be possible to still clean it by leaving it in the rain or hosing it down. Nelson residue is waterproof and soap proof. The only way I've been able to take it off woodsball bunkers is by mechanical means, which isn't an option on air bunkers.



This residue looks almost identical to the stuff that ruins my paintball pants. I'll post more on those later.

Bunkerscrub looks promising, but I'm sure it isn't a cost effective way to clean an entire field. In Warpig's video review, Bill Mills talks about the streaks on bunkers being left over pigment. The problem with Nelson is not the pigment. In other paintballs, only the pigment is left to stain. With Nelson, most of the paintball remains in the form of oil or wax which given a day to dry, hardens into a gooey surface layer.

[drg]

Let's forget about the dyes for now. Yes, white Nelson paint stains, but I haven't seen a white paint that doesn't.

As for the bunker, I'd say that's a case of low end Nelson plus a dusty field plus summer heat. Trust me when I say that residue doesn't come off easily. You can take most of it off, but without some sort of solvent you aren't going to get it all off at the end of the day.

The bunker pictured below is cleaned after every use. You can see that the Nelson picks up dirt which helps it cling and form a gummy mess. In this tournament we used Procaps and borrowed the bunkers from a field that used Nelson. To clean the procaps we used squeegees and then threw some water on the bunkers. It washed right out. All the bunkers remained very sticky though, because of the Nelson residue. If you leave any Nelson residue, it will turn into gum and becomes impossible to remove.

In the case of the bunker I posted above, yes it has been neglected but keep in mind that if it were procaps, it would be possible to still clean it by leaving it in the rain or hosing it down. Nelson residue is waterproof and soap proof. The only way I've been able to take it off woodsball bunkers is by mechanical means, which isn't an option on air bunkers.



This residue looks almost identical to the stuff that ruins my paintball pants. I'll post more on those later.

Bunkerscrub looks promising, but I'm sure it isn't a cost effective way to clean an entire field. In Warpig's video review, Bill Mills talks about the streaks on bunkers being left over pigment. The problem with Nelson is not the pigment. In other paintballs, only the pigment is left to stain. With Nelson, most of the paintball remains in the form of oil or wax which given a day to dry, hardens into a gooey surface layer.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a bunker gets this soiling pattern, let alone after one use. I mean look at it, the top is covered! Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

[Lohman446]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a bunker gets this soiling pattern, let alone after one use. I mean look at it, the top is covered! Am I the only one who thinks this is weird?

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

[Chronobreak]

so if its not canola oil..what is it?

what mixes with water and does not break down naturaly, in water, or with UV exposure

and Beemer, im no expert un the subject, but theres obviously grey areas pertaining to fills

just because something is non hazardous does not make it environmentaly friendly.

drg, you keep asking for prrof and all around people are posting the same info to collaborate my experiences.

you are saying this is not proof and are acting as if you know something that we dont.

so i ask you where is your counterevidence that this is not the case? that this is all some other type of mystery paint or something that we are not doing correctly as part of a cleanup ritual?

ok lets say i accept your theory on not cleaning airbal bunkers, should any field be expected to go out and clean up ALL of their wiid bunkers, barricades, hyper tubing etc on every field after everyday?

so unles you have something to post contrary to what I and nearly everyone else here is saying please dont post, Im starting to feel you have some reason to defend this paint or attempt a small damage control for nelson.

[Smoothice]

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

Or it blew over. Boy do I hate when that happens. Half way to a stand up bunker and it falls over

[pk5]

Well as I have said above, I personally have not found nelson to have washability problems, and that would be a key area to test. I have never seen a modern ball that would actually stain a lens.

You have not proven what oil is in the paint, so jumping to the conclusion that it is canola is a mistake right off the bat, and a use of an item as an insecticide may or may not have anything to do with its relative toxicity to humans or the environment. Oil is involved in the manufacture of all paintballs, regardless. You have not proven that the white residue is oil or related to the oil, versus the other agents in the paintball formula (thickeners, colorants, etc.)

Ultimately the claims are very, very broad and I am far from convinced a certain brand of paint is to blame and should be vilified for it. As a player I have been trying to glean some information from this crusade that I can act upon with confidence but I have never gotten it. Everything is just overbroad and anecdotal.

All this talk about the EPA and fields getting shut down smacks of hysteria and alarmism rather than well-defined reality, which is exactly what we don't need.

Sorry but this seem to get out of hand, with all of the concern regarding the environment lately, if a paint is oil base it will wash downstream eventually, consider that most field are in the rural area and near some type of creek or watershed. If the industry doesn't regulate it self then sooner or later an environmentalist will raise an alarm, a few endangered fish die and the industry will have a big problem on it hand. Consider that most field does not hold a very big political cloud, if an environmentalist raise an issues, it is not likely that the field can defend it self.

[drg]

you are saying this is not proof and are acting as if you know something that we dont.

No, I have not said I know anything beyond my own experiences, which do not square up with your claims. Nothing you have shown is very convincing otherwise. In other words, I suggest that what you know or think you know is not being communicated well, and is based more on emotion and generalizations than specifics. I as a thinking player cannot use this information.

Fields get dirty and collect paint residue, that's a fact of life. But if you are going to claim certain types of paint do specific things, it's incumbent on you to show that. It's not enough to show some dirty bunkers; you need to show how X paint does it while Y paint does not, you need to compare what you can determine of the formula, try to identify paints which have certain characteristics, show comparitive stainability, etc.

In other words you need to connect the dots. Right now you have thrown four dots out there and said that the picture is an elephant. That has been the problem from day 1 with this crusade.

[drg]

I would guess that was used as a lay-down at some point and thats when it got that soiled.

Do you honestly think that is the case? Do laydowns usually collect paint residue ON THEIR END? Were all the bunkers used as laydowns? You can see the bunkers in the back have the same soil pattern on them.

Again, how many balls do you actually see break on air bunkers, especially near edges and ends, let alone low-end balls?

[Lohman446]

Do you honestly think that is the case? Do laydowns usually collect paint residue ON THEIR END? Were all the bunkers used as laydowns? You can see the bunkers in the back have the same soil pattern on them.

Again, how many balls do you actually see break on air bunkers, especially near edges and ends, let alone low-end balls?

On the ground on the edges of the bunker and splattering up? A LOT. Especially near the edges where people tend to shoot from. Thats the honestly answer. At this point it seems you are simply attacking the obvious for whatever reason.

The fact is this. At some point we are going to have to answer a question.

Did what you were doing have an obvious environmental impact?

Was there a readily available substitute that had less of an impact?

Was this commercially available and easily attainable?

Was it available in the same price range?

Did you, or should you, know about it?


Then, after hearing yes to all of them you are going to be asked one more question.

Why?

I hope you have a better answer than the arguments you have presented here. And when you tell me the cost was different, and the cost difference was less than 10-20%, I hope you set aside all the money you saved.

Remember, the makers of asbestos ceiling tiles were following manufacturing standards of the time.

[Beemer]

and Beemer, im no expert un the subject, but theres obviously grey areas pertaining to fills

No doubt about that. They still sell RED fill dont they.
You need to find out whats in the fill[think MSDS] and then my last post will help. That is from ASTM standards. I know for a fact the standards arent followed. So do the other folks.


drg.....The fact is, it is all supposed to be WATER soluble. If they need to PROMOTE a cleaner I would guess that it isnt. Wonder what is in the cleaner along with the fill in the ball we are flushing in to the environment. You arent one of those that dont CLEAN their gogs[remove lense] after taking gog hits after playing for the day are you? Oh wait thats right it dont hurt nothing you dont HAVE to. It is still true most or all paint eats Polycarbonate, Lexon, Lexan etc... Another thing, why should WE do testing? WHY dont THEY tell us if they have done testing. Guess they should do that HUH? The testing thing.


Lohman446.........Nice Post. You left out a few questions but thats a good start.