New SFL Cocker $700.00 ?

[cockerpunk]

Good question. I dont know if I have to correct answer for that. However, it seems to me the high end mags have retained their value, and the demand for them is still somewhat high.

There are also examples of mag parts that sit on shelves and collect dust.

I also think that there were/are a lot more cockers out there, which might have something to do with that. Of course, ultra high end and rare examples of either will always draw a large price tag.

But think about this - recently we bought a used Racegun half block for $600. That is pretty much as high end as you get for a cocker. The example Shocktech is offering pales in comparison, yet is $100 more, and not even ready to shoot out of the box.

racegun?

no no no.

the valuable cockers have most certainly held there value - westwoods, twisters, revenges and the like are all still fetching 600 plus. even older shocktechs and KAPPs can be seen for sale in 400ish range and most of those aren't even that great in terms of cockers.

the only electro cockers that ever really held value were the eclipse ones. other then that an electro cocker is an electro cocker.

maybe being a mag only guy has tainted what makes a cocker a cocker. now i love automags, dont you worry, but shooting a well tuned, by arguably the best cocker tech in the world, that gun is worth alot. remember belsales? they sold essentially stock cockers, for twice as much. this is because they tuned those cockers to the best of the parts ability, and there is a huge market for that. i defiantly think it will sell.

[NoLifeLeft]

Yeah, maybe its because i'm an old cocker guy but i don't think they are that far out of line. Especially considering that there are so few companies out there where you can get a top notch NEW cocker. That said, i wouldn't buy one but I'd love to have one.

[teufelhunden]

I don't know. There are alot of irrational mag users around here. I mean, jeez, Dawg047 has all these Micromags and keeps buying them. I mean, that guy is nuts. I think Shocktech would really profit if they just sold the bodies. Everything else on the gun is still the old school cocker design. I mean, Shocktech Pneumatics and accessories can be had dirt cheap these days on Ebay and such. There is no real innovation besides the body which is almost that same body they had back in what, the early 2000's? It is a very nice gun but I don't see it fetching big money like that. Now, if they were to do something different like make the bolt smaller. Make the lower tube smaller with a smaller yet just as effective hammer. Rework the valve with an all new design that is smaller and 50% more efficient. I could see it fetching those prices. Mags get quite expensive because there are so many different upgrades and just innovative new things coming out. I mean a RT or X valved mag can shoot upwards of 36bps mechanically as apposed to a classic valved mag which can shoot like 13 if maxed out. There are Pneumatic frames, electro frames, this lightened small body, this lightened warped body. The cocker unless Ebladed is just the same cocker from the 90's. The accuracy is great but it still just shoots yay fastt. And, the accuracy part is due 70% or so on paint to barrel match. The quality is top knotch but isn't every custom built cocker top knotch if I put all the best parts on it. I think we buy expensive guns for two reasons. 1) They have some advantage than a lower end gun and will help improve our game. 2)We are obsessed with this particular gun and have to have every one. I don't see the real advantage of this cocker so I would have to say it is for people that have to have it just because they have every prestigous cocker to date. I don't see that many people out there like that but hey, maybe there is. I know I try to buy as many rare and prestigous Mags I can afford so hey. I am just talking about the majority of people in the market. Is there really going to be a market for super high ends in the $700+ range the way the sport is going anyways.? I mean in a year or so, I see everyone shooting 5bps anyway. Are companys going to keep producing $700+ guns to do this? I don't know. Just speculation. Time will tell.

I couldn't read this thing because you don't know about paragraphs. But what I could read, it seems like you're lauding the 'Mag because apparently there are "innovative" products coming out for it or something. Really? The RT valve hasn't changed in what, a decade? Oh, they made it kinda aluminum so it's lighter. Is lighter innovative? If so, SP/Dye/Angel are way more innovative than AGD. People are putting electronic triggers on their Mags? That's cool, I had a Hyperframe in like 2002. And people have been SpyderMagging their guns for how long? Not to mention the E-Mag. So yeah, there's definitely innovative electric trigger products for the 'Mag too. Oh, and pneu triggers, those are cool too. Two things about those are innovative: they're the exact same thing that sits on the front of an autococker and as I recall when it was PTP (boo ) vs. Deadlywind (yay ) there was talk of prior art for this in the early/mid nineties. More innovation!

What other types of innovation did you talk about for 'Mags... oh, some people are making bodies. That's cool. I bet it saves like 6g vs the custom bodies that people made 5 years ago. OMG PTP IS COMING OUT WITH ANOTHER BODY... BUT WE HATE THEM CUZ IT'S THEIR FAULT THERE'S NO hAIR TRIGGER! Nothing here is innovative. You're delusional if you think so.

The 'Cocker you speak of also hasn't changed much. EBlades/Races are older now, I guess that MQ thing died out, etc. I think the last thing anybody really did on a 'cocker was toss on some QEVs or something.

AVG is demanding I restart my computer, so I will close with the reminder that you are misdirected in what your definition of innovative is if you think that little list you have up there is it.

[VeeWee]

That is a beautiful gun.

[Person]

If what they advertised about these guns is true, than they are worth every bit of the money they are charging. 700 dollars includes a regulator btw.

These guns are hand tuned by Danny Love. He is legendary as far as trigger work is concerned, and unlike automags, there is actually a difference between one "working" cocker, and another. Any mag working properly feels just about the same, while cockers can vary greatly.

Very few autocockers for sale used are actually well tuned guns. Mostly they are just cobbled together with no real tuning at all. This gun for 700 dollars is a steal considering any gun close to it would have been 1200 dollars just a few years ago, when the dollar was worth more.

Their pneumatics work fine and even with this "old" cocker technology, these guns are vastly more efficient than any automag.

People think mag owners are insane for owning a trick mechanical karta, dallara, or just nice RPG mag for 600+ dollars. Please dont be so ignorant as to point a finger at a cocker guy ( a guy just like you ) who is happy to get a brand new perfectly tuned cocker instead of an 8 year old piece that needs work.

Cocker and mag guys both love mechanical designs. They both love guns that feel good. They both want good USA made stuff, not mass produced foreign E guns with high price tags. I have loved automags and autocockers since day one and it is just silly that these people dont get along.

So while both mag and cocker guys seem unreasonable to SOME people, to each other, they should be understood.

[Dawg047]

I couldn't read this thing because you don't know about paragraphs. But what I could read, it seems like you're lauding the 'Mag because apparently there are "innovative" products coming out for it or something. Really? The RT valve hasn't changed in what, a decade? Oh, they made it kinda aluminum so it's lighter. Is lighter innovative? If so, SP/Dye/Angel are way more innovative than AGD. People are putting electronic triggers on their Mags? That's cool, I had a Hyperframe in like 2002. And people have been SpyderMagging their guns for how long? Not to mention the E-Mag. So yeah, there's definitely innovative electric trigger products for the 'Mag too. Oh, and pneu triggers, those are cool too. Two things about those are innovative: they're the exact same thing that sits on the front of an autococker and as I recall when it was PTP (boo ) vs. Deadlywind (yay ) there was talk of prior art for this in the early/mid nineties. More innovation!

What other types of innovation did you talk about for 'Mags... oh, some people are making bodies. That's cool. I bet it saves like 6g vs the custom bodies that people made 5 years ago. OMG PTP IS COMING OUT WITH ANOTHER BODY... BUT WE HATE THEM CUZ IT'S THEIR FAULT THERE'S NO hAIR TRIGGER! Nothing here is innovative. You're delusional if you think so.

The 'Cocker you speak of also hasn't changed much. EBlades/Races are older now, I guess that MQ thing died out, etc. I think the last thing anybody really did on a 'cocker was toss on some QEVs or something.

AVG is demanding I restart my computer, so I will close with the reminder that you are misdirected in what your definition of innovative is if you think that little list you have up there is it.

Yep, your completely right. I know nothing about paragraphs. You should actualy read that whole thing before you come up with a reply that is just completely off the handle and makes no sense. How about you learn sentence structure?

What are you even talking about? I am not bashing the mag. or saying the mag is better. I am not bashing the cocker either. In fact, the cocker is one of the smoothest most consistent markers I have ever shot. It is like the race car of paintball. Everyone shoots different according to its tuning and parts used to build it. It is just the autococker has been stuck in a time warp. There has been numerous innovative products released for the mag. If you don't think so, you sir have not owned one in your lifetime because the Mag has come a very long way and alot of products have been released since AGD has went out.

And what is the rambling about PTP? Noone has even mentioned them. Yep, the new Micro body is coming out. It is the only body that is NOT and Xmag or Emag Extreem to be released with a rotating breech. Not innovative at all. Oh, and noone hates PTP. If you hate PTP, you have problems. PTP has done nothing but bring good to this community. They do right by people and there products are more than 100% exceptional.

Now, like I said. There is not much there in that 09' SFL that justify's it being any better than the older cockers. Same Pneumatics, same internals. Just a different body. Now, it could be worth the $700 for being a limited production marker but I was just saying how many people buy limited production guns rather it be MAG or Cocker? I see cockers going for $100 these days. I don't see people buying it for that price when an older Shocktech could be had for $200 on the bay.

I was just simply saying that $700 is a bit steep for a gun that is just primarily a prestigous gun, not really offering any main advantage over previous versions.
Not bashing Shocktech or anything there chief. I am just stating my opinion on how I think the marker will sell and its price.
There paragraphs.
I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone or bashing anything. I never do. I don't know why people feel obligated to start talking all kinds or random crap and pick fights.
Sit down, relax and collect yourself. Please.

[Dawg047]

If what they advertised about these guns is true, than they are worth every bit of the money they are charging. 700 dollars includes a regulator btw.

These guns are hand tuned by Danny Love. He is legendary as far as trigger work is concerned, and unlike automags, there is actually a difference between one "working" cocker, and another. Any mag working properly feels just about the same, while cockers can vary greatly.

Very few autocockers for sale used are actually well tuned guns. Mostly they are just cobbled together with no real tuning at all. This gun for 700 dollars is a steal considering any gun close to it would have been 1200 dollars just a few years ago, when the dollar was worth more.

Their pneumatics work fine and even with this "old" cocker technology, these guns are vastly more efficient than any automag.

People think mag owners are insane for owning a trick mechanical karta, dallara, or just nice RPG mag for 600+ dollars. Please dont be so ignorant as to point a finger at a cocker guy ( a guy just like you ) who is happy to get a brand new perfectly tuned cocker instead of an 8 year old piece that needs work.

Cocker and mag guys both love mechanical designs. They both love guns that feel good. They both want good USA made stuff, not mass produced foreign E guns with high price tags. I have loved automags and autocockers since day one and it is just silly that these people dont get along.

So while both mag and cocker guys seem unreasonable to SOME people, to each other, they should be understood.

They are tuned by Danny? Awesome. Met him once, great guy. Really knows his stuff. I completely agree on the shooting between each cocker. There can be a difference between day and night between a well tuned one and one that has just been thrown together. Thanks for the info. What kind or reg are they coming with?

[Person]

Dawg - For 700 they include a ST reg, which is a CP reg with ST machining, so it is decent (not the very best) but at the very least it is ergonomic due to the input being on the bottom of the reg.

Again, a cheap trashy autococker is no where close to working like a good autococker does. While a cheap classic mag (80 dollars) with an O ring kit will perform like ANY other classic mag that works correctly, a cheap autococker can never be made quite like a good one. You can make them decent, but few have made them great.

There is no question that it is hard to justify 700 dollars when one can piece together something -similar- for half that price or so. However, being brand new, with perfect Danny tuning and an excellent warranty is quite a big draw for me.

While automags have had neat weight-saving innovations like machined out rails, there really has not been much to actually make one function better than another.

Pneumatic triggers make the trigger pull better, but the valve is still doing exactly the same thing, with mediocre efficiency and a unique chrono pattern.

I own and love both and 90 percent of the time I prefer a mag, but the only reason for that is because a good cocker is not there 90 percent of the time.

[minimag03]

I don't know why all you guys are doubting Shocktech with this release!

Think about it! Shocktech, a popular and main stream company in paintball, is saying it's cool to shoot a mech. And that mechanical guns can now compete with electronic guns. Hopefully they will sell and other companies will follow with their own mech markers. AGD would get A LOT more business if this idea catches on. I think they would become as big as they were and maybe Tom would come back .

And $700 isn't a bad deal. These SFLs were $1200 or more when they were released, and you could have found a better mechanical cocker for less at the time. Now they are $700 with a CP reg and are the best Autococker that will be on the market for awhile (or ever again lol). Plus they are tuned by Danny Love himself, which is priceless.

I'm buying one for two reasons:
1) to support ST with the above
2) so AGD wil have a shot at staying in business

viva la mech

[Spider-TW]

and yet there are $300 mag bodies and milling patterns ...

you can easily build a 700 buck automag, why would cocker fans be any different?

You have to allow for quantities.

CNC has enabled the custom mag market, but the quantities are pretty slim and that is for completely custom pick-your-parts. You're also talking about people that will add polish and ano. We can barely agree on a body design, much less an entire marker.

I have no doubt they will sell some. The question is how many whole custom markers will the present market support. It's a tough call. It's also a thin (low distribution) product to expect a lot of advertising out of, if they expect some mileage from that.

Like TK says, we're a fickle group, and I say AO and MCB are the sane ones!
I often get the feeling you could round up everyone on both forums and still have a minority of thought in paintball. Just knowing some paintball teams and seeing how many of that group take an interest in forum information, it seems like that would be on the high side compared to the general populace.

[MANN]

Now they are $700 with a CP reg

...CP reg. That is not a benefit. there are much better regulators.

[minimag03]

...CP reg. That is not a benefit. there are much better regulators.

There are a few regs that are better, but the CP is worth the extra $20. The CP reg is known to be a decent anyway, plus it's looks fit the marker perfectly. Or you could sell it for more than $20 in the b/s/t section.

[XM15]

WOW! the Mag vs. Cocker debate still rages on. Its nice to see some things in paintball never change.

[jman511115]

Kinda like ford vs chevy... we all know ford (and cockers) are better.

[going_home]

Kinda like ford vs chevy... we all know ford (and cockers) are better.

Put the crackpipe down and back away slowly there doughnut.