Heckler & Koch suing paintball companies

[WenULiVeUdiE]

If they weren't in the business at all it wouldn't matter to them, the more things that look HK the better, but they're in the airsoft biz now from a licensing standpoint and they need to protect their assets.

Eh, not really.

First, intellectual property is worthless if you do not protect it.
Second, yes, it can hurt H&K and the gun industry as a whole. H&K cannot determine who or under what circumstances their products are represented if other companies are making products that directly mimic those of H&K. Without that control, people may mistake an A5 for an actual MP5.

[rx2]

I think that all the numbers show that all the carriable pistols are jokes in far as stopping power.

This reminds me of an interesting story. Our department uses 9mm +P+ Hydra-Shoks. One of our guys fired a round into the chest of a felon, from about five feet away. The round deflected off of a rib, traveled through his abdomen, and severed his liver. After being hit, the guy looks at him, and exclaims "mother , you just shot me!" Of course, on the other end of the spectrum, we have had people killed with .22s. Shot placement is key, and a little luck never hurts.

As for 9mm vs. .45 - I can shoot either. For use at work, I kind of appreciate the higher capacity of the 9mm. For target, I like the fact that the .45 gives you a larger hole, thus making borderline shots count as bullseyes (although it does feel kind of cheap to get points that way). I don't expect either to take down a wet-head with one shot, though.

[Watcher]

Sorry if I used a term you disagree with, I have heard it referenced this way in the past. Please enlighten me if I have misspoken.

Are you saying that you would prefer a 9mm to the .45 acp?

Not too familiar with the Kimber Custom but they seemed to be comparably priced in today's market. A very fine piece I am sure. Fortunately I purchased my H&K Tactical quite a few years ago, paid under $1K for it.

Well, I always roll my eyes when people say something like "knock down" or "knock back" power because every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If the bullet knocks down your target it would knock down you.

"Stopping power" is the correct term to use.


A lot of people would say the 1911 design is outdated, but it is a solid platform and Kimber Custom highly improved on the quality and features.

For example, the Kimber 1911s have 5 safety functions. 3 operate off of a thumb switch and 2 operate off of the grip-safety.
The thumb switch slides up into a grove which prevents the slide from moving, at the same time it blocks the hammer from moving, and it blocks the trigger from moving.
The grip safety blocks the trigger from moving, and has a pin which travels up through the slide and activates a block for the firing pin preventing it from moving. This is in case the pin would get jostled and fire the pistol by dropping it or something.

When you relax the hammer, it doesn't fully drop down. It stays in a "half-cocked" position. Another safety feature.

1911s by design are very thin, and as long as you don't mind the weight they can be very small.


If you got a USP for under $1000 then that was a great buy. It is a great handgun in a great caliber, though in the modern price tag and by my personal preference I would take a Kimber 1911 9 times out of 10 over a USP.


I am a fan of .45 9mm is horrible




I was never a huge fan of H&Ks stuff, but they do make a good product in most respects.
I think their 416 is a way better system than the M4/AR15/etc and their G36 is very well designed.

But then again, I always heard that the company was made up of jerks and all the diehard H&K fanboys are the kind of people who say "HK" not "H and K" and if you think otherwise you are an idiot...

[Lohman446]

I am a fan of .45 9mm is horrible ...

Elaborate. And when you quote stopping power I expect you to actually look at the charts and understand how woefully anemic any standard handgun is. PS - all my 9MM defensive handguns are full of Barnes tipped Corbon ammo.


How are we defining stopping power? Analysis of the data from past shootings? Muzzle energy statistics?

The muzzle energy as listed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy of a 9mm is in the 350 ft lb range. .45 ACP in the 400. 44 Mag clear up to 1000.

The muzzle energy of a .204 Ruger is 1308 ft lbs

The point is - neither cartridge alone is going to do you a lot of good. There is no magic handgun, especially one that you can reasonably carry. Put the right bullet in the right spot and, with a little luck, you might be ok. Better yet, be prepared and do your best to stay out of situations where it might be needed.

As has been said by some before. If you know you are going to be in a gun fight bring a 12 gauge.

Don't get me wrong, I like my Kimber, I like the idea of a .45 hole in the end of the barrel if I ever have to point it at someone. Still, it quit being my primary carry some time ago.

[GRimm]

The term knock down power makes me laugh and reminds me of the show Future Weapons and how much of an idiot the host is when it comes to firearms.

[SCpoloRicker]

Man, that was an effective threadjack I pulled off here.

[Lohman446]

Man, that was an effective threadjack I pulled off here.

One of the all time best . You managed to keep a thread mentioning legal events and paintball in the same post from derailing into an SP fest

[Watcher]

Elaborate. And when you quote stopping power I expect you to actually look at the charts and understand how woefully anemic any standard handgun is. PS - all my 9MM defensive handguns are full of Barnes tipped Corbon ammo.

I never mentioned stopping power in a comparison of a pistol load to a rifle load, I just detest the term "knock back" power or any variation on that.



I just don't like 9mm. Sure there are some types of 9mm ammo that are good to use but speaking in terms of standard loads .45 is much better at stopping an attacker than a 9mm will ever be.

I've even seen accounts where a 9mm shot to the head failed to be fatal and caused a concussion with no actual puncture of the skull. That is why they train many cops to continue to shoot until the attacker drops, because 1 9mm round usually isn't enough to bring someone down.

.357 sig, .44mag, even .40S&W I would take over a 9mm.

Then again I prefer a nice 7.62mm to a 5.56mm. Any particular reason? Well, the 5.56 in my eyes only has velocity to hold above the 7.62.

[cockerpunk]

knockdown/stopping power is a myth anyway.

the bullet will simply over penetrate if it has left over energy.

i personally think any gun that lets you practice enough to put lead on target is going to be infinitely better then any other gun. for some people that is the 9mm, and for some that is the .45. but dont lie to yourself thinking the .45 is going to do much more damage, its primarily just going to over penetrate. really the largest factor in terms of damage is going to be a hit or miss, and then the bullet itself shape and ability to disperse energy. the 9mm can be and is just as effective as the .45 in 90% or more cases.

[Lohman446]

I never mentioned stopping power in a comparison of a pistol load to a rifle load, I just detest the term "knock back" power or any variation on that.



I just don't like 9mm. Sure there are some types of 9mm ammo that are good to use but speaking in terms of standard loads .45 is much better at stopping an attacker than a 9mm will ever be.

I've even seen accounts where a 9mm shot to the head failed to be fatal and caused a concussion with no actual puncture of the skull. That is why they train many cops to continue to shoot until the attacker drops, because 1 9mm round usually isn't enough to bring someone down.

.357 sig, .44mag, even .40S&W I would take over a 9mm.

Then again I prefer a nice 7.62mm to a 5.56mm. Any particular reason? Well, the 5.56 in my eyes only has velocity to hold above the 7.62.

Taking the 44 Magnum out of the equation as not available in a carryable platform the beleif that those other rounds are substantially better than a 9MM are exagerated at best. That was the purpose of the numbers on ME I put up, to simply illustrate that. Officers with .40s 357 sigs, and 45s are taught the same thing

I have yet to find a .40 in a platform I am happy with. The substantial additional recoil in the carryable platforms (personally I feel the thing is a far less manageable recoil than a .45) is not worth the very minimal additional "stopping power". A term I am still not sure what we are using to denote in this conversation. Personally I would carry my 10MM Glock, but the added width does not fit my hand as well as other pistols, nor does it conceal well.

[MANN]

Taking the 44 Magnum out of the equation as not available in a carryable platform

you tellin me I cant carry my 14" long 5 shot single action 44 magnum.

[XM15]

I remember when the Kimbers first came out. I ran out and bought one for $550 The early guns where one heck of a deal. A semi custom gun at a production gun price. Its the one gun that I regret selling.

[fierymartel]

LOL, I got a 9mm. I figure if the 9mm don't knock em down I oughtta be able to after I put a few in em.

[Slippy]

Now that everybody has given their opinions here are some facts.

The energy equation is 1/2*M*V^2=E

The average pistol fight is 3 yards

An average .45 ACP loaded with a 230gr** round is going about 900 fps the energy for that cartridge is going to be 511 ft-Lbs (it has the energy to lift 511 lbs to a height of 1 foot.

An average 10mm Auto round loaded with a 180 gr round is going about 1250 fps it has the energy of 624 ft-lbs.

An average .40 S&W with the same 180 gr round is going about 950 Fps it has the energy of 361 ft-lbs

An Average 9mm Luger with a 124 gr round is going about 1075 fps, it has the energy of 315 ft-lbs

An average .44 magnum loaded with a 240 gr round is going about 1300 fps, it has the energy of 900 ft-lbs

These aren't my math they are straight out of hornady's reloading handbook***

.45s, .40s and 9 are a dime a dozen.

If your partial to the 1911 (which I am) Kimber and Para-Usa make some of the best pistols for the money. Kimber are accurate as hell and Paras have double stack mags (anybody who don't like that aint never been in a gun fight)

If you like tactical tupperware (glocks) the 23 in a .40 is a nice package, 16 round mags with a 3.5 in barrel is a great concealed carry. They also make one in 10mm

Beretta's 92 (M9) is very popular its also made in .40 with the 96

Springfield Armory makes some nice 1911s but their XD is their better half (if we're not talking rifles) The XD(M) with 16+1 in .40 and 19+1 is worth switching to the smaller calibers.

Colt makes the delta elite which is a 1911 chambered for 10mm auto.

The new S&W M&Ps are nice but S&W are notoriously bad with triggers, 12 lb pulls yikes!

H&K makes some of the nicest polymer pistols out there, the SEALs love them, but there original appeal of Hi-Cap .45s has been lost with the advent of better magazine springs and such that the extra money for the H&K really isn't worth it over the Glock or XD, (the XD .45 one more than the HK)

If you shoot for accuracy get yourself a 1911. If you want a gun that is easy to maintain get one of the polymer jobs. I've seen glocks go 5000 rounds without cleaning.

If I could make a personal recomendation I would get a .45 or 10mm, when the zombies are coming straight at you you can't rely on your accuracy to hit the heart on the first hit, take some with enough juice to keep them down.

"If your shooting stance is good, Your not using cover properly"---Unknown



**1lb is equal to 7000 grains


***All of these velocities and energy numbers are averages. somebody can load these rounds to shoot really hot and such so a .40 S&W could be loaded to do what a .45 ACP is capable of, but if your just buying factory ammo this is what you will be getting.

[JAM]

handguns are handguns...

get the one you shoot the best.

I prefer 9mm 'cause it's cheap which allows lots of practice and I like the higher capacity.

If i could only use non-hollowpoint ammo, a .45 would be my choice because of the bigger wound, but with modern hollowpoints, the semi-auto handguns are pretty much on close footing: