Why no shorter aftermarket bodies?

[Mongoose]

I was not aware that the M90 sold so quickly, if so, my bad. I thought Tuna still had them on his site, and there's been one for sale in the BST for awhile now. I check your site every so often, and thought you still had a fair amount of bodies and rails available, considering the quantity you started with. Either way, I'm not judging, just wondering why more of the shorter length aren't offered and wondering if more of some of the aftermarket frames wouldn't sell if there was something better to put them on? Looking forward to seeing what you come out with.

that reminds me...i need to update my website.

[Ando]

Ya...The first batch of Magnus frames sold out in like 20 min. Then came the second batch. I think in all over 80 were made. As for E-frames, besides the V.E.R's, BE commissioned 10 E-90's and he didn't get them all sold till he got the few he had sold, out to their owners. Word of mouth took off from there...

Once the current sold V.E.R.'s get sent out, I'm sure the rest will be gone in no time...

I plan on getting one myself. House projects are killing me ATM tho...

[El Camino]

that reminds me...i need to update my website.

Not to change the thread, but, Mongoose, don't let up on the 8" inserts!! I'm really looking forward to getting a set.

[Dirge]

We have some very interesting stuff coming out, and most of it is AM/MM related.

[RogueFactor]

Agreed. I forgot about that one. I am not worried so much about them fitting the stock rail. I am willing to buy a new rail, I just want the shorter design to get rid of the goofy 2 inch gap between the frame and front grip on E length uppers when mech lowers are used.

The Chord v2 is perfect for that.

It makes me wonder to a certain degree if this is the element that has been missing lately from some of the released products. I mean, I would have thought the Magnus frame would have flown off of the shelves and the VER frame would have sold out relatively quickly as well. But it seems like the Magnus frame must not have been as much of a success as they planned since from what I gather another run isn't planned, and the VER frame has only presold like 13 frames so far. Is it because there are no "proper" length platforms to put them on? I mean PTP was able to presell over 100 MM2K9 bodies, and have people willing to wait 3 years for them to get done. Others with E length products don't seem to sell as quickly.

Things arent really what they seem, and it appears you have noticed that things arent jumping off the shelves. Items are made in smaller batches for a reason, and thats the reason.

Some may have you believe things are well with Automags, and I can tell you thats not true. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. But the market doesnt lie, and supply/demand and pricing reflects that. Look at how many dealers used to build for this market, and the batch size compared to today. The volume that is selling nowadays is a small percentage of what it once was. Until the economy turns around, I dont see that trend changing.

Its been interesting to watch the turn of events. Mags used to be the stalwart of the industry, bucking the trends and holding their value. This has changed and many have noticed the trend.

With that said, smaller batches will increase prices as you lose economies of scale. This is largely the reason why I doubt youll be seeing a custom body/rail combo new in the $250 price range anytime soon.

[OPBN]

The Chord v2 is perfect for that.

And the last one I have seen come up was 2-3 months ago, and they had it priced at $350 for just the body. I also never particularly liked it that much, especially since there is no matching rail that I am aware of.

Things arent really what they seem, and it appears you have noticed that things arent jumping off the shelves. Items are made in smaller batches for a reason, and thats the reason.

Is it what is being made that is keeping them from flying off the shelves? If something different were being offered, would it change this?

Some may have you believe things are well with Automags, and I can tell you thats not true. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. But the market doesnt lie, and supply/demand and pricing reflects that. Look at how many dealers used to build for this market, and the batch size compared to today. The volume that is selling nowadays is a small percentage of what it once was. Until the economy turns around, I dont see that trend changing.

Its been interesting to watch the turn of events. Mags used to be the stalwart of the industry, bucking the trends and holding their value. This has changed and many have noticed the trend.

I agree that the economy sucks and in general, paintball is taking a hit. However, it seems like there have been a lot of people coming back based on some of the recent posts and I definitely have seen more mags at the fields that I frequent this past season in particular. Again though, is it because people are bored with what is offered? I'm relatively new to the Mag scene, and I have yet to build all of my dream Mags yet, but is interest waining because it's the same old offerings?

With that said, smaller batches will increase prices as you lose economies of scale. This is largely the reason why I doubt youll be seeing a custom body/rail combo new in the $250 price range anytime soon.

Which sucks. I would imagine PTP didn't exactly make a killing on the MM2K9, especially after all the time and effort that they have spent on it, but putting body/rail combos into the $500 range I think puts it out for a lot of people. However, it must be possible as the Phoenix is being offered for $350 as body/rail and anodized. I think this is fair.

Again, I am not trying to rag on anyone or their products. I realize the market isn't what it has been in the past. I still wonder though how much is economics and how much is people being bored with what is offered?

However, I don't know how much interest there really is in AM/MM length products? It seems like there are a couple of others posting on here that are, but what is the overall consensus? Is there a driving need for these, or am I a minority?

[going_home]

The economy has slowed used and new paintball related items sales way down.
Rogue may have some of the Chord bodies left.
I know he made some Dallara rails and the Wave rail, both were AM/MM length.
Personally I dont see what the big deal is on the length, they are only about an inch different.
And the RT Pro style sear and sear pin are preferred over the AM/MM ones.
Most of the after market RT Pro length rails have a slot where the grip attaches so you technically could slide the grip back to the trigger frame.
Or get a UMF or an EM Ripper frame and the trigger guard is bigger.

[OPBN]

The economy has slowed used and new paintball related items sales way down.
Rogue may have some of the Chord bodies left.
I know he made some Dallara rails and the Wave rail, both were AM/MM length.
Personally I dont see what the big deal is on the length, they are only about an inch different.
And the RT Pro style sear and sear pin are preferred over the AM/MM ones.
Most of the after market RT Pro length rails have a slot where the grip attaches so you technically could slide the grip back to the trigger frame.
Or get a UMF or an EM Ripper frame and the trigger guard is bigger.

I thought Deadly Wind made the Dallara body and rails? If Rogue is offering any parts I have not seen them in the dealiers section. I check PB Legion sometimes and it doesn't look like anything has been updated there in months. Or am I confusing something? If there are other options out there, someone is doing a terrible advertising job. You are confusing my want of a shorter rail with a sear preference. The new RT Pro rails are AM/MM length and still have RTP sears. Like I said, maybe I'm the only one that cares.

[hill160881]

When you can build a EP frame for 250, the V.E.R. seems a bit over priced(But they rip and are very nice, and my hats off to the maker). That is why they are not flying off the shelves. Etek 2 frame with board is $50. Ep mod around $200(done by someone else, only 100 done by yourself), Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.

So 250 for EP etek frame with all the modes and ability to tune things the etek board allows. Then add eyes for 150 and you have the same price as the V.E.R. and no chopping.

I do agree that we need a shorter AM/MM length because i want to do a build with that length but i was going to have a RPG recon rail cut, welded and machined smooth again. so if someone comes out with one befor that it will be sweet.




Mongoose, will the new rail have the same room in between the body and bottom of the rail? Because i need to put a noid there. :)

[factoid]

What's the actual length difference between the AM/MM and the RT/emag length rails.

Do any of these bodies and rails actually fundamentally alter anything about the marker's total profile? Even on a micromag you've got the same length valve that sticks just as far back as it does on an AM/MM Rail or an RT Rail. There's just less metal underneath it.

I think the front of the body is slightly shorter, and maybe the threads for the barrel sit back slightly farther but I'm not sure they can.

If you put a 14" barrel on a micromag and a 14" barrel on a ULE the measurement from the tip of the barrel to the back of the valve is probably identical, isn't it?

The only real difference is how close the foregrip is to the trigger frame, and on that score I definitely prefer an RT length rail myself because it's less crowded. But other people like their hands closer together and that's just a personal preference thing.

[KillerOfGiants]

Only difference is that the rail is shorter. Nothing else mounts differently. I have seen some ULE 'mags in the BST with Tac-One rails(I believe.) that are AM/MM length. I know, personally, I prefer the RT length because I have somewhat larger hands. I have tried moving my foregrip back to where it'd be on an AM/MM length rail and it's real tight like a Mini which is too small for me. I might pick one up someday for the hell of it.

An issue I have with AM/MM rails is when people use a plain jane ULE body on it and they get that dorky over-bite look to it. I know MiniMags had this look but at least they came that way from AGD and weren't butchered. I believe Luke does some milling to shorten the body and RT rails...?

If someone gets creative, they should get an AM/MM rail with a shortened ULE, get a back- cap for the reg, shorten the back of the rail and use a hyper3 reg or something. Talk about Mini-Mag.

[TwilightG]

When you can build a EP frame for 250, the V.E.R. seems a bit over priced(But they rip and are very nice, and my hats off to the maker). That is why they are not flying off the shelves. Etek 2 frame with board is $50. Ep mod around $200(done by someone else, only 100 done by yourself), Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.

So 250 for EP etek frame with all the modes and ability to tune things the etek board allows. Then add eyes for 150 and you have the same price as the V.E.R. and no chopping.

Not to split hairs but while you make a really good point, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The Magnus and VER frames are factory-new frames with all internals properly arranged and connected (or in the case of the M-90 frames, all the mounting points for pneumatics are pre-tapped making the pneumatics almost a 100% drop-in)

I could make a pneumag frame for $150 if I bought a used Intelli and spent the time and effort getting everything lined up, drilled, etc.
Or, spend about $300 and get a brand new frame, unblemished, no modifications needed.
It really all depends on what you want.


Back to the main topic at hand... I prefer AM/MM length
Aside from my X-Mag, all of my mags have been AM/MM length.

The only big reason I can think that RT/EMag length rails are more prominent is because of the fact that they can be used in both E-Mag and mech configurations. As Mongoose pointed out, we're looking at a really small market.
Sell AM/MM length rails and you've already narrowed your customer base even more.

Maybe not as many mag owners are as picky as you and me

[Fatalis]

I took a Gen 2 RT Pro rail , UMF, RPG Piraih body and a CF foregrip and put them together for a tight fit.

[Mongoose]

Sorry but i can't agree that mags are dying and there are no more companies making parts and so on...

We are more then happier with the amount of parts we have sold this past year.
We do need to update our website with the actual number of parts that remain.
Currently we are sold out of many parts. "EP body/rail, Snatch grips, EPG, Syclone body, Helium body, Noxious body, Actually the only things we have left at the moment are some rails and Carbon Fiber grips

From the beginning we purposely kept our build runs small and numbered. We understand that the Automag is a niche market, and it has been for many years. We are fine with that because we are true fans of the Automag.

Also we are making our products from scratch to AGD standards. Everything is made here in the USA, i can see a body/rail being sold for $250 if all your doing is taking stock parts cutting them up a bit, fresh anno and done......But we are on a different scale, Our finished products speak for themselves. And when did a "Custom" Body/rail ever cost $250?

In the End we will be releasing many new and CUSTOM mag parts for everyone to enjoy.
Thanks AO

[OPBN]

I took a Gen 2 RT Pro rail , UMF, RPG Piraih body and a CF foregrip and put them together for a tight fit.

Oddly enough, I was going to put yours up as a nice example of AM/MM length marker. Probably one of my favorites.

Sounds like there is a market out there for something other than a shortened ULE, which coincidentally, I already have.

[IMG][/IMG] Did it myself. It's actually on another marker now and now I have a miniTac body and angled ASA on this one.