Why no shorter aftermarket bodies?

[OPBN]

Also we are making our products from scratch to AGD standards. Everything is made here in the USA, i can see a body/rail being sold for $250 if all your doing is taking stock parts cutting them up a bit, fresh anno and done......But we are on a different scale, Our finished products speak for themselves. And when did a "Custom" Body/rail ever cost $250?

I was saying $250-350, and as mentioned the Phoenix bodies were priced at this higher end. While it is a unibody, the MM2K9 was/is $220.00, $245 with a vert ASA adapter. This might not be a fair comparison as they have the milling capabilities in house, as does XT.

You seem to be taking this personally which it isnt intended to be. Glad to see something new coming out. Unfortunately, it sounds like it may be a bit pricier than I was hoping for. I might just have to jump on that Dallara.

[Fatalis]

Thanks for the compliments.

[Mongoose]

I was saying $250-350, and as mentioned the Phoenix bodies were priced at this higher end. While it is a unibody, the MM2K9 was/is $220.00, $245 with a vert ASA adapter. This might not be a fair comparison as they have the milling capabilities in house, as does XT.

You seem to be taking this personally which it isnt intended to be. Glad to see something new coming out. Unfortunately, it sounds like it may be a bit pricier than I was hoping for. I might just have to jump on that Dallara.

Not taking it personally, as most of my comments were not directed your way.

[p8ntbal4me]

The problem we find with the making of new products for the AGD community is that there is too large or range in what you/we want.

One side wants a short rail,.. the other wants a full length body.

One side wants EP,.. the other wants E-only

One side wants vertical frame,.. the other wants a 45.

That provides the problem with the new trigger frame having to work with BOTH styles,.. which means,.. you have to cut a corner somewhere.

In a shorter rail,.. it means the trigger guard is smaller. Longer body = longer rail = bigger trigger guards. (compair the Logic UMF to the AGD intelli)

Dont even look at the twist lock assembly.... another thing you have to work around.

For the VER,.. we went shorter. Not my particular choice,... but its the most universal.

The Chord body is nice. Everyone likes a DW item on the mag they shoot or show off.

The problem with the DW bodies is they are grossly over priced and not being produced. You can buy a brand new Venomous Designs body AND rail for the BST price of a DW Chord (which does not have a matching rail)

Why by used when you can buy new?

All up to the buyer,.... they decide what is and what is not best for their needs.

I am just speaking out loud here,... but from my end of the design desk... shorter is alot more difficult to work around.

[p8ntbal4me]

Not to mention i dont like the way the magnetic noids sound, feel, and eat batteries.

Id say you are a potential buyer for the EP frame then

Which will be along in the spring......

[KillerOfGiants]

Id say you are a potential buyer for the EP frame then

Which will be along in the spring......

Probably couldn't get you to shed any light on the 45* VER release, huh?

[p8ntbal4me]

Probably couldn't get you to shed any light on the 45* VER release, huh?

There wasnt much interest in a 45 version to be honest.

I had designed a 45 style EP frame a few years ago and scrapped it. Just recently (year and a half) I had the design re-worked to something most people would enjoy holding in their hand.

We had a few other items coming along as well,.. so baring a HUGE upset in lost time this winter,... I may be able to get 2 more items with the frame. (Im designing non-paintball items now as well)

---------------------------------
On topic:

I forgot to mention, another issue with the AGD community when developing new parts is the need/demand.

I personally get a lot of PMs asking about making new items. Most common would be an electronic frame. Others include new circuit boards. OCCASIONALLY I get someone asking me how to get a hold of Chris Nearchos

When you have a lot of buyers wanting a new product made, and they commit financially, it makes it easier to bring around in a timely manner. It also helps if the R&D is complete prior to bringing the design out to the public (ive done that before,.. its not good)

If a bunch of people want something new,.. and dont commit with the cash flow,.. then there isnt a REAL need for the product to begin with.

I was looking at not doing the pre-order for the VER before another person became involved,... it can get expensive real quick. Look at the price of controller boards, small parts, machine time, testing, electronic parts (if your doing that kind of thing), proto-typing, etc. It adds up very quick.

I could make a new EP frame RIGHT NOW and have it out in a few months time,... but where is the market for that to sell out in a week? Not there. Items wont "fly off the shelf" as someone put it. Its not the right time financially.

But for someone like myself, whom has a few month off to design things and look to push new product in the spring,... its not the amount you could push off the shelf that drives me,... its the simple thought of keeping the shelves stocked with something someone will want eventually. Thats what a AO member does here in the AGD community,... what we have to, to keep things going.

That statement is truth in numbers on the VER thread. Over half of the frames are sold. That was the goal. The other ones will sit and wait for someone to want one. Not typical business for sales,... but acceptable for the customer base and my own goals. I just want to design parts,... that is enough for me.

[BigEvil]

That statement is truth in numbers on the VER thread. Over half of the frames are sold. That was the goal. The other ones will sit and wait for someone to want one. Not typical business for sales,... but acceptable for the customer base and my own goals. I just want to design parts,... that is enough for me.

That's because you aren't a greedy **** and you are enjoying seeing your ideas come to reality.

[cougar20th]

The reason for rt/emag length being common is simply demand. There is more demand for that length. Most demand for am/mm comes from pumpmag users currently. Its just harder to sell something that has less demand.

I think the reason for current AGD dealers to do smaller runs is simple. AO is known to in the past request parts, say they will buy said parts & only once they were made on a large scale does the dealer find out he cant sell many & is stuck with the remaining for along time..Just ask Tom about the ygrips to understand.

So AO has proven repeatedly that short runs although more expensive to make & sell are far safer for the small dealer. This is due to less risk financial if something doesn't sell. Most dealers now aren't doing this full time & its more about the love of automags then anything. Its about that warm fuzzy feeling you get when you see someone using a product you designed or made. Even better is when they have no clue who you are & they spout off the reasons the product is so great.

If memory serves me the 1st batch of M-90 frames sold in about a hour. The second batch sold out. As ando said something like 80 frames. B.E.'s 10 E-90's all sold. Jai has sold a good amount of VER frames. Mongoose has a ton sold as listed. Xmt is still selling bodies when demand & time arrive. Cerberous sold I don't know how many airwalks & pump kits. Hopefully we will see more cool stuff from him.

Yes you can count how many dealers have left AGD products. But you can also count how many new dealers are out there making new products. Simply a changing of the guards.

What market in paintball hasnt taken a hit of some degree in this economy. SP did, AGD did, AKA did...New or used market Everything did no market wasn't immune.

[OPBN]

The reason for rt/emag length being common is simply demand. There is more demand for that length. Most demand for am/mm comes from pumpmag users currently. .

Interesting statement. Has there been an official poll taken to determine more demand? If you only offer rye bread, can you them make the statement that there is more demand for rye bread than white? As mentioned, I would guess it is more lkely that the reason most are made in the longer length is to insure they can be used with E-lowers, thus broadening the user base. Seems like once people get to the point of spending that much money, they want to be able to have electro capabilites. So yes there is more demand, but because it is covering a broader base, not because no one wants shorter length. As for the pump statement. Of the several mags I own, all but the E-mag are AM/MM length, and not one of them is a pump. This is to be rectified shortly when XM15 finishes his pump kits.

[BigEvil]

Be carefull with "Internet polls". Ask TK about that

[OPBN]

Be carefull with "Internet polls". Ask TK about that

Point taken.

[hill160881]

Mongoose, will the new rail have the same room in between the body and bottom of the rail? Because i need to put a noid there. :)

[Mongoose]

Yes

[p8ntbal4me]

Interesting statement. Has there been an official poll taken to determine more demand? If you only offer rye bread, can you them make the statement that there is more demand for rye bread than white?

I did a poll for EP frames,... and the 45 frame won out on 2 different forums.

So the 45 frame will be the only Rye bread offered

I think what hes saying (and what I was saying) was that the guys that are small time and doing small runs,.. having to not make something EVERYONE wants (or the majority)will be very costly.

So you are correct,.. there is only one choice, But the choice was made by majority interest to avoid not selling the product off and cover the financial start up cost.

To give you a better idea,... the VER frames put my personal expenses $7,000 in the hole BEFORE I ever designed the frame to finished product.

I know the comment was made expressing the difference between a DIY E-setup and the VER frame. The person doing the DIY project doesnt have any R&D overhead, software expenses to feed the machinist a drawing, the proto-type cost (times 3 for the VER ) the list goes on,.... it takes cost to deliver a finished product.

One is production,.. the the other is not. You cant really compare the two. A DIY project makes the items used personal to that person,.. it was their idea,.. plan,.. and effort to get to the end result. Production items deliver the finish to the end user complete. They pay someone to do all the work for them. If the DIY'er charged himself an hourly rate for the design, setup, labor to assemble, and test the project,.... I bet the cost/price would be a lot closer to the same number.