Trouble with UThomas

[ArmyEngineer]

This post is to alert the rest of you that, in my experience, UThomas is not a reliable seller. That might seem very direct statement, and it is; however, it is also a fact. This is relayed in chronological order. If I seem harsh, please read our conversations in the next post. Thomas pulled a fast one and then tried to blow me off.

A caveat: Before anyone says, "Well yeah, but that is still a good price." I was not looking for an X-mag in fair or good condition. I was looking for an X-mag in excellent condition. That is what I paid for. The marker I received is not as advertised. That is a violation of the rules of our trading community and a violation of trust.

I purchased the gloss black X-mag that Thomas listed for sale here. http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=253216

Relevant PMs before the sale was made:

September 9th:

I'm interested. Is there a sear pin dimple on the passenger side? Any scratches in the ano? It's hard to tell from the pics. Level 10 spacers included?

Thanks,
Charlie

No sear pin dimple that I can see. Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall. I can def throw in some level 10 spacers - not a problem.

Thomas

Then on the 21st:

Hey man,
Let me know if you would do $750 shipped to 35802. I would use the paypal gift option to avoid fees.

Thanks,
Charlie

$760 and gift option and we're good to go. It is in SWEET condition - this would have gone for $1100 before A-Tach dumped his collection. Doh!

My paypal is tmitchell@....

Thomas

On the 24th, I asked for better pictures without the overpowering glare and at full resolution:

Yeah, me too. The thing is, prices have continued dropping. If you could take a few more pics for me in natural lighting w/o the glare and in a higher res, I would appreciate it. Put that XSi to good use!

Is the passenger side just dirty around the trigger, or is the ano faded?

Thanks again,
Charlie

Those pics were actually in a light box - in Texas it is too bright and gets a bunch of glare. Anyway - I'll take some more pics but don't expect a pro photog :) It is gloss black - no pooling or fading in the anno - looks almost new (as you can see by how little wear on the valve there is).

Thomas

These are the only additional pictures I received. http://yfrog.com/64img0660vqjx

I picked the marker up from the post office on the 12th of this month. The box was in good condition and the contents were all wrapped in bubble wrap. Thomas was kind enough to throw in that old Halo for free. (Then he uses that inclusion to rationalize his inaccurate description.) Unfortunately, the marker was NOT in the condition promised.

The left side has a number of scratches, especially toward the front and on the centerfeed breech. Most do not show bare metal, however, the forward half of the driver's side body is peppered with numerous indentations and gashes as is the upper half of the battery housing. The damage is very visible. The dings appear to have been made by some sort of impact. Or perhaps the marker was reanodized without any surface preparation. Regardless of the cause, I asked Thomas to offer a return for full refund. He refused and blew me off. I will post our PMs in the next post.

Here are a few pictures that are very representative of the damage.I broke the marker down and cleaned it thoroughly before taking these. It was full of paint, and unfortunately the sear lock still sticks (not mentioned in his sale post), but that's not what I am mad about. Notice the microfiber cloth, no dust and no fingerprints. These were taken outdoors in the shade.

Please click the images below and view them in full resolution:




Here is the whole album of 36 shots in full resolution: http://yfrog.com/42img1614cjx

Before I took these, I sent Thomas two other series of photos. These were taken indoors under a floor lamp. No flash. I did wipe the marker down before these as well.

http://yfrog.com/ekimg1529jx

http://yfrog.com/8bimg1478hjx

This photo in particular does a good job or showing the size and depth of the indentations. Again, please click and view it in full screen:



I don't know about the rest of you, but when I pay for something that is repeatedly described as "excellent," "fantastic," and "looks almost new." That is exactly what I expect. Whether or not this is still a good deal really is of no consequence. Sending an item in a condition other than described is dishonest. Categorical imperative, anyone? If the marker's flaws had been made known and if Thomas had described the marker accurately, I would still have $770 in my bank account and he would still be trying to sell this damaged marker.

If that isn't enough, please see my conversation with Thomas when I complained and asked for a return. His responses were bureaucratic, patronizing, and arrogant.

[ArmyEngineer]

A little background info first. I contacted another user here with photos of the damage. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't over reacting. Word spread and Thomas thought I had tried to go above him with my concerns. My intention was to get a second opinion, not to gang up on Thomas. I have exhausted diplomacy, so I am now bringing this all to the community's attention. I would much rather have resolved this amicably, but that does not seem possible. If this stirs up drama, so be it. Hopefully it will keep Thomas from burning you in the future.

I take particular exception to his statements in red.

Hey man-

What is this I'm hearing through Beemer that you are having issues with the xmag condition? Besides the fact that you didn't come to me directly, what exactly are you taking issue with? Unless the shipping box was damaged, the gun will be *exactly* as described and outlined in the many many high resolution photos I took under various lighting conditions and sent you (which is: not New in Box, but excellent with zero to very minimal scratches and scuffs). Also - hope you enjoyed the halo loader I threw in for free.

Thomas

Hey Thomas,
I am sorry you heard about my concerns through another avenue. I did not mean for this discussion to happen that way. I contacted a well respected member about this last night to be sure I was not just being overly picky about the marker's condition. I wasn't trying to arrive at this discussion indirectly. It looks like word spread to beemer and back to you without my knowing. I would have preferred to break this to you directly without external involvement. For that I do apologize. I know it is much better to keep this private, and I did not intend to involve anyone else. I am very sorry for that.

I picked the marker up on my lunch break yesterday from the post office, and everything was well packaged. And I was surprised to see that you had included the Halo. That was very generous and appreciated! However, the first thing I noticed when I unpacked the marker was the damage on the driver side. There are numerous dings or indentations in the anodizing on the forward half of the body, the upper third of the battery pack, and on the centerfeed breech. There are also some scratches there that were not visible in the three higher resolution photos that you sent.

I was very surprised to see all of this after specifically asking if there were any flaws in the marker's ano. I understand that the marker is not brand new. I doubt there are any brand new x-mags out there. I do not wish to argue semantics, but the easiest definition of condition that come to mind is from Kelly Blue Book. They define the following:

Excellent
Looks new, is in excellent mechanical condition and needs no reconditioning.

Good
Free of any major defects.
Clean title history, the paints, body, and interior have only minor (if any) blemishes, and there are no major mechanical problems.

Fair
Some mechanical or cosmetic defects and needs servicing but is still in reasonable running condition.

This x-mag would fall on the fair side of good. Not excellent and not fantastic.

If you would like photos, I can provide them. The ones I sent out last night were rubbed down with a microfiber cloth. I cleaned the marker up last night to insure that there is no dried paint or grime to interfere with my eyes. And it does look a little better, but you can't wash away indentations in metal. I will take some more photos and send both albums.

I think I would just like to return this marker for a full refund.

Please get back to me when you have a chance. I would like to resolve this amicably, and I will be sure to explain that to beemer and the other individual involved.

Thank you,
Charlie

I'm actually speechless about this. This marker is in excellent condition. I have bought and sold dozens of makers in over 19 years of playing (almost 10 years on this forum) - and I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition - including the bone daddy. So that to me is excellent condition.

The anno on this marker is in fantastic shape. You asked if there is "no pooling or fading in the anno" - specifically around the trigger. There is not. The pictures in normal lighting condition I sent to beemer (and you) bear that out. If you want to tell me there numerous are pits and scratches that you wouldn't find in the pictures I'm just going to flat out disagree. I was more than accommodating providing very high res pictures in numerous lightning conditions for you, threw in extras, and shipped it exactly to your specifications while giving you a tremendous price. Honestly, if you do not like the condition of this marker - I'd recommend you only buy new or markers with dust finishes that were never played with. I was as candid as I can be on the markers condition and bent over backwards to show the condition to backup my overall claim of the marker being in excellent condition (which is not limited to cosmetics and includes mechanical features like ACE working, new battery, etc).

I will not be offering you a full refund.

I will be happy to provide you the contact info of the other buyer though - or my sale pictures for you to resell it. You can be happy knowing you got the nicest x-mag for the cheapest price I have seen on these forums in around 5 years so flipping it should not be a problem.

Good luck.

Thomas

Thomas, I am not making this up. Here are some fresh pictures. There are pits in the anodizing. This is a very good example. http://img218.imageshack.us/f/img1520b.jpg/

Yes it is hard to capture with a camera, but this is not something easily missed by the eye. I asked about the possibility of fading on the passenger side near the trigger. The damage is on the driver side. I had no idea it was here, because your pictures didn't show it. I have all of our PMs. Below is a direct quote from the september 9 convo.

You sent me three full resolution photos, two of them were of the side that is in very good condition. Also, the damaged breech was laid to the side and at an angle that doesn't show any damage. I am not accusing you of doing that intentionally, its just that this was a complete surprise to me.

Here are some fresh pictures. One is of the passenger side that doesn't have these dings.

http://img524.imageshack.us/g/img1529.jpg/

No sear pin dimple that I can see. Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall. I can def throw in some level 10 spacers - not a problem.

Thomas

Quote:Originally Posted by ArmyEngineer
I'm interested. Is there a sear pin dimple on the passenger side? Any scratches in the ano? It's hard to tell from the pics. Level 10 spacers included?

Thanks,
Charlie

Charlie - I don't know what more to tell you. I stand by my description of the marker (there are no scratches that a reasonable person would identify by eye) and maintain that you got a tremendous deal. I provided you all the pictures you requested even going to far as to retake them with a DSLR in the lighting conditions you requested. If I missed a shot, or did not get enough detail for you - that is not an issue I can entertain at this point. You were the only prospective buyer I did that for - and I would say that I have only met 2 other buyers who had similar requests over the years.

If you are having buyers remorse because slight anno imperfections showing up in extreme close up pics with the flash on I would recommend you flip the marker and chalk it up as lesson learned. Going forward, if I were you I would just know that you are extremely and highly unusually particular with wording (I am not kelly blue book so I'd outline your rating scale for people) and as such you should put the due diligence on yourself to get ALL the pictures needed to make sure you get what you want and expect.

As I mentioned - happy to put you in contact with next buyer in line (overseas) that I put on hold for you to have the opportunity to purchase this marker at such a good price.

Good luck.

Thomas

I was out of town on business for a week, but I sent this response to Thomas on the 21st. It was apparent that I was not a "reasonable person" and that Thomas would not take responsibility and correct his mistakes.

Thomas,
Sorry for not responding sooner. I have been away on duty for the past week.

The description you gave was not accurate. I do not know why it was inaccurate, and I don't care why. The marker I received is not as described. You should accept a return for that reason alone.

A tremendous deal? That sounds like rationalization to me. I did not pay for a good marker, I paid for an excellent marker, which I did not receive. It is not worth $770 to me. It might be worth that to someone else, but you didn't sell it to someone else.

You sent me three additional pictures. None of them show the damage that you also neglected to tell me about. You told me this marker was in excellent condition. By no means is this marker in excellent condition. I was the only one you took more pictures for? Maybe that is because no one else was interested enough to ask. Thomas, the pictures weren't even useful. I'm sorry it was so much trouble for you to snap a few extra photos. If you look at those imageshack albums, I have taken more, and they are all more accurate representations of the marker's condition.

I don't have buyer's remorse. I have a marker here that is not what you advertised. Have you heard of mail fraud? This definitely fits the definition of misrepresentation.

None of the photos I took used a flash, FYI. The imperfections are not slight, they are very noticeable under normal lighting conditions. You should have taken representative photos yourself.

Chalk this up as a lesson learned? My bank account holds money, not lessons. It should not be my responsibility to "flip" this marker. I shouldn't even have to be writing this PM right now. You misrepresented this marker, from what I can gather, willingly. You should refund my money and resell it yourself. (I would suggest with an accurate description and the photos I took, since you obviously don't know how to use your own camera.)

Most people know the difference between excellent/fantastic and good. If you don't know the meaning of a word, don't use it. I expected to receive what you promised. That did not happen. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ACCURATELY DESCRIBE YOUR ITEM. To try to pass your screw-up off on me is dishonest and immature.

This is not a good price. the marker is damaged, and therefore, NOT WHAT I PAID FOR. FIX THIS.
Either let me return the maker or pay for a re ano of the body and battery pack. (It would be cheaper to eat the shipping costs, Thomas.)


Sincerely,
Charlie

Thomas's next response is what really got to me.

I understand you are upset - you have communicated that clearly. We do not need to continue the back and forth. I will not be offering you a refund and consider this matter closed.

Thomas

"I consider the matter closed." Really? That is how you respond to a dissatisfied customer? I do not consider this matter closed, Thomas. What is wrong with this guy? I tried to be calm, polite, and reasonable throughout our disagreement. What a patronizing thing to say after you were the one that screwed up!

[Mindflux]

Funny you mention him. I asked about this mag and he said you'd probably offload it for 800 if I asked.

Sheesh.

[kwik175]

quality dispute

I know the frustration involved with not getting what you thought would be the perfect marker. The only problem is that is is used and not sold as new. If you continue to say how bad the condition is you may never have a chance to sell it and get back what you spent. It sucks but the truth is sell it if your not happy.

[ArmyEngineer]

I know the frustration involved with not getting what you thought would be the perfect marker. The only problem is that is is used and not sold as new. If you continue to say how bad the condition is you may never have a chance to sell it and get back what you spent. It sucks but the truth is sell it if your not happy.

Reselling is certainly an option. However, I am not afraid to describe the marker's condition accurately, even if it reduces the likelihood of a sale. The members here deserve accurate descriptions in the BST section. Anything less is a disservice to the buyer and a betrayal of trust.

The other option is to spend the money and have it refurbished. That is not something I anticipated having to do.

I know this is already probably a post of record length, but please read through it in order to better understand where I am coming from. I never expected a perfect marker. I expected a marker in the condition that was promised. It is not that I am picky about my markers (although I am) this is about honest and accurate descriptions of merchandise.



I am off to a Halloween party. Going back through everything just raises my blood pressure. I should probably go eat some oatmeal. Mods, please do with this as you please. I know this is not he kind of post that the forum likes to see. Still, I believe that people should know how this went down. Perhaps it will raise some awareness of business ethics.

I hope you guys don't think I am just a crybaby or a whiner. I am prepared to suck it up, but I want some good to come from it as well. I hope this serves as a reminder of how BST should not be conducted here. You will NEVER see this kind of a sale from me.

[insixdays777]

I would be pissed if a marker I bought showed up with those marks and was sold via the description noted above.

That's not how I like to see deals go down on AO. Sorry man. Good Luck.

[SummaryJudgement]

I disagree...

I know the frustration involved with not getting what you thought would be the perfect marker. The only problem is that is is used and not sold as new. If you continue to say how bad the condition is you may never have a chance to sell it and get back what you spent. It sucks but the truth is sell it if your not happy.

I disagree entirely.

As lengthy and as positive the way the X-mag was described, I sure don't consider that marker to be accurately depicted (based off of Army's pics):
-looks almost new
-It is in SWEET condition
-Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall
-I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition - including the bone daddy. So that to me is excellent condition.


I have owned 4 X-mags myself and NONE of them were even close to looking that beat-up...

I agree with Army, just my 2 cents.........

[Newt]

Any chance of a Paypal dispute, or does the gift option not allow that?

[mostpeople]

You bought a marker that was used, what did you expect? Factory anno? he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

Bod on both of you to be honest, ridiculous expectations coupled with poor selling policy. If I sold a BNIB xmag that was mint and never opened, and the customer wasn't happy I would issue a refund with the stipulation that he pay return shipping. I do think Thomas should have refunded you.

But you need to be realistic too, its a used marker, and you got a ridiculous deal. And no matter what it is in good condition, and taking pictures that literally highlight any flaws in the anno will not help the case.

.02c

[OPBN]

What's odd is with dents that deep, no metal is showing. Almost looks like it may have been reanoed once already and it is either pitted or the scratches/dents were too deep to polish out.

[going_home]

You bought a marker that was used, what did you expect? Factory anno? he describes it as excellent and I see a very good condition xmag.

Bod on both of you to be honest, ridiculous expectations coupled with poor selling policy. If I sold a BNIB xmag that was mint and never opened, and the customer wasn't happy I would issue a refund with the stipulation that he pay return shipping. I do think Thomas should have refunded you.

But you need to be realistic too, its a used marker, and you got a ridiculous deal. And no matter what it is in good condition, and taking pictures that literally highlight any flaws in the anno will not help the case.

.02c

Gotta agree with that.
Both of you .... Thomas for not giving a better description and clearer pics,
and you for being over the top with your pickyness.

Heres a suggestion, sell the marker for what you paid plus shipping.
And then buy one of the $3500.00 pristeen Xmags that are floating around.
Or just forget about it and play with it and have some fun.
Those guys with the $3500.00 ones are skeerd to play with them for fear of scratching them.

Yes I am saying you got a nice deal on the marker.
Now go play with it !

[mostpeople]

true, i do not see any of the underlying metal.. looks like a re-anno. And lets be honest when you arent blatantly highlighting the blemishes, it looks pretty good.

[ArmyEngineer]

Hey guys,
Thank you for the responses. I am sure Thomas will probably say something to that effect as well. The reality is that those photos that are tagged in the thread are very representative of the marker's condition.

I took a whole lot of photos, and the ones included in the thread are very accurate. I am not "blatantly highlighting" the damage. I am showing it, which is a courtesy a seller should extend to his potential customers. That is what the marker looks like in person. These are deep dings, not surface scratches. Sure I can take a photo of the marker that doesn't show the damage. Between reflections, glare, the camera's white balance, and the one dimensionality/single angle of a photo, it can be difficult to take good photos (Making the marker look better or worse.) That is what Thomas did whether intentionally or not. But the very visible damage is still there and his words led me to believe it was not there.

mostpeople, I suspect you would be disappointed if you had purchased the marker expecting it to be as described. Did you know that it had this damage from Thomas's listing or PMs? I did not. That is my problem.

I already had one X-mag with damaged ano. I did not want another in worse shape.

If you are going to list something for sale. BE HONEST and thorough. It's that simple. And yes, a good seller who had made a mistake would have agreed to a return. That is something I can certainly appreciate.

Again, if anyone will have this marker for what I paid+shipping/paypal, please send me a PM. I would gladly settle for that. The thing that worries me is that the marker was listed at $775 here and on PBL for 10 days before it sold. Apparently the only other solid offer on it came from overseas.

[Smoothice]

Well besides adding uthomas to my no buy from list I will also be adding mostpeople and going_home.

Thanks for bringing this to light.

Edit:

After looking at those pics on my desktop it makes me sick.

Anyone who thinks this is O.K I really hope you don't do any selling on AO. Take your stuff to "greener pastures"...

[maniacmechanic]

The biggest problem here is it was paid for with PP Gift , you will never get that money back , it was a Gift you wern't buying something
I agree with , ArmyEngineer , SummaryJudgement , insixdays777
I disagree with ,

mostpeople ,
seller stated ;
" looks almost new " , after the hailstorm ??
It is in SWEET condition , ? sugary
Anno is fantastic. Some very slight wear at the bottom of the battery but it is in very very good condition overall ; no description of the left side condition
I have very very rarely seen a used marker in this good of condition. I have owned 4-5 x-mags. None have been in this good of condition
well I've owned 3 X's still own 2 , the silver one I sold was in better condition than this one
most , if you would have recieved an Excall described as almost new , would this be acceptable to you ??

GH, you & me both have bought & sold a lot around here , If me or you had bought this one I think both of us would have been dissappointed