Need opinions, need input. The state of paintball.

[breg]

Ok Cats and Kittens,
We all know that paintball is in a slump. The fields are gettign smaller, attendance is dropping off at major events, fewer new playeres are comming, and fewer still older players are returning.
We all have thousands upond thousands of reasons, theories, and points of conjecture as to why. I'm not entirely intrested in those at this point in time.
What I want to know:
1. What can be done in your opinion. I do not care how outlandish it is, but please, please, please do not let your resonpses stray into finger pointing and negativity. We get that too often as it is.
2. What is bieng done right as far as paintball goes. I realize that soemthign I may really enjoy about paintball is something that someone else might find detestable. Opinions cannot be wrong; only disagreed upon. The intent is not to start a debate about what is right and wrong, but rather to form some idea as to where the tastes are laying.
3. What is not right about paintball. Please don't say something like "Raming sucks 'nuff said." That is not really solving anything. Also see #2 above.
4. What you are willing to compromise upon when it comes to the necessiary changes that need to be doen to revamp the sport.

Thanks, Breg

[sjrtk]

The major problem IMHO is the kids (age irrelevant) who come in to the sport with (fill in which ever brand) gear who cheat, overshoot, yell at reffs, and cuss out people who are playing legit. These people are the ones who seem to show up and drive people out of the game then leave as soon as they do as much damage as possible. the regulars at the field were i play are pretty good about self policing these kinds of guys out of there and helping the kids who are just starting have fun. We still manage to play hard but we still manage to take it easy on the new guys. I don't know what it is but paintball players seem to be the worst thing that has happened to paintball.

In short we need to relax at the field and remember we are ALL THERE TO HAVE FUN. Let the new guys have the same fun as the rest of us who are "better" and don't just pound them out of the game.

[breg]

Agreed. Refs/fields need to garner some back bone and not tolerate the jerkish big spenders.

[dahoeb]

In addition to the devolving attitudes, I think the overall piss-poor state of the economy is also playing a big role in the downturn of the game. Many people (including myself) are very weary about throwing hundreds or sometimes thousands of dollars at something as expendable and relatively unimportant as paintball. Unfortunately paintball isn't like soccer or basketball where all you really need is a $5 ball.

When the economy shows some legitimate stability, then we might see the market grow as people quit hording their cash. People that left the sport might be willing to come back in.

As far as the attitude problem, who knows if that will ever change. Thats something that starts at home with the parents and how these people are raised.

How do we deal with the attitude problem on the field? simple, hold everyone accountable and don't tolerate their shenanigans. Like in football or baseball, the refs are the ultimate authority, and if you argue, you get ejected. cya! adios! later! Unfortunately, we don't see it as much as we should because a lot of refs are real young and don't want to deal with confrontation, so instead of acting as a supreme authority, they act like camp counselors.

[bound for glory]

but paintball "for fun" has'nt been in "vouge" for years. back when i started(1985) you could have a laugh. now, try to bring a girl on the field...or a new guy with no clue. and the fake tough guys. and the guns that shot hot. or the ramping idiots. or the wipers. or the just plain mean. its all there, on any given day. the first field i played on, combat survival games in little gap, pa., was run by a former marine sargent. you broke the field rules, or pissed him off, you were housed. but he did'nt care if you came back. he owner the land. and he owned his own construction business. the people who came back did so because it was a great field, and it was WELL POLICED! thats a damn rare thing these days.
paintball **** the bed when people started making big money on it. when it became "bad business" to kick someone out for breaking the rules. when we started talking about "pro players"(that one always makes me cring). when everybody stopped thrashin' togeather and having a good time, reguardless of what kinda gun you used.

[breg]

Ok, so what I am getting so far, is that it is more about the business than about the sport/hobby. I do miss the old feeling of fraternity (spelling sucks) we used to get even 7 or 8 years ago.
So, we need to focus less on the one guy spending 1000 dollars and focus more on the 10 guys that might spend 200?
Also, the other thing that keeps popping up is ramping. Is a return to straight semi in a rec ball setting (and by rec ball I am refering to anything that is not an organized tournament) somethgn that might help?

[pbjunky99]

With the markers that are out today, I dont think going back to semi will fix that much, heck with a 12.5 ramp you will get hit less than with a semi player that can walk a trigger at faster rates. I do think that the fields needs to keep better check on there turny players that decide to play rec ball with the birthday parties or church groups(those are the 2 biggest group types that come out to my field). I think the regular players need to relise that this sport needs there help to grow and going out there with there high-end markers blasting everyone isn't helping.

I myself try to get that point across to the players at the field I play at but there mind set is much diffrent. They feel that if they want to come play on THERE field they better bring there A game. All they want to do is punish the new players and don't care about anyone else. The field owner tries to keep them in check but he dosn't want to scare off the regular busness due to poor turnouts for the past few years.

So in short, the players(not all of them) need to take it upon themselves to help make paintball a better experiance for the newer players.

[breg]

Agreed about the ramp ban... I can actually shoot quicker in smei than the 12.5 bps that PSP will allow you to ramp to.

One theory I have is a return to a bigger game format. Say more of a woods ball style where there is more involved in the game than just Getting into a bunker and unloading paint into a lane, and waiting for your front man to bunker some luckless newbie.

The biggest feed back I am getting is to limit the ROF against rec players/rentals.

[OPBN]

I think a lot of the blame rides on the lack of fields, as well as the lack of variety in the fields. I like playing, but get bored quickly with small fields or ones that don't change very often. It's a catch 22. Most of the fields that have decent variety, are also FPO and it runs $100+ for a day of play. Most of the BYOP fields are usually smaller and not making enough money to pay for improvements.

Distance of fields is a big issue for me right now as well. Where I'm at, it's at least an hour to the closest field and at least 2 hours to a good field.

[Smokee_2_7]

I have not played a game of paintball in over two years.

I began playing in 1996 on my buddies' farm with a couple friends and some cheap pump guns. We had the time of our lives. When I graduated high school and 'the group' began to fragment, I began to play at my local field. It was a blast. I remember feeling compelled to "practice" my rapid fire shooting with my first Automag. At that point, you could tell the experienced player apart from the newer players based on the sound their guns made. The experienced guys' guns would sound one of two ways: a single 'pop' followed by someone calling 'HIT', or short controlled bursts of rapid fire from mechanical 'mags and 'cockers that would STILL make many of the players on the field drop their jaws in disbelief.

If a player had more than three breaks on them, then the shooter was pulled from the game as well.

The better players could easily sustain a ROF around 8-10 bps, but they were not often pulled for over shooting. The rules of the game favored individuals that were more disciplined.

The first Angel I saw ( V6 . . ) at the field belonged to a locally known tournament player. I did not see his 'gun before the first game we played. The marker had a bit more of a 'crack' to it, but there was no noticeable difference in ROF. After the game is saw it and realized that THAT was the 'Angel' we had been seeing on the internet. This player had no more breaks on people that day than usual - - - he knew the meaning of 'fire control'.

A couple years later, I saw my first of what I'd later learn to call 'AGGlets'.
Some whiny DB kid whose parents had more money than sense had bought him one of the new Angels with the LCD screen. . . . It wasn't exactly light years ahead of the other electronic guns that we were used to seeing, but it sure did cost a lot more. During the games that day he kept getting pulled for over shooting. He was shooting about three times the paint of the rest of us, and would infrequently get the drop on someone. Five to seven breaks on someone usually mean they were , and he was was pulled from the game screaming on how it wasn't his fault that they got hit so many times - - - they were playing on, or wiping, or to slow, or ran right in front of him. . .ANYTHING other than accept responsibility that he couldn't control that 'machine gun'. Within six months the field has lost a few semi regular players. Many of them cited the behavior of the aforementioned player as a deciding factor for them to go play renegade ball elsewhere. They player wasn't banned because every weekend his parents dropped a couple hundred bucks at the field for the rest of us to baby sit him. He stuck around for about a year, ran a bunch of players off, then quit playing paintball.


I learned to reff, I learned about the paintball business. I began playing some local tournanments. I moved away, and fit right in with one of the local fields in my new town. I ran the field, ran the pro shop. I encouraged over protective mothers to let the little boys ( 15-16 yrs old, in some cases!) wipe the dirt off their own faces when they came off the field. We organized and hosted tournaments, and we competed in other events. As everyone knows, guns got faster and faster. 'Cheater boards' entered our vocabulary. "Ramping" was another word for the old shocker 4x4's 'turbo' mode. By 2005 I was pretty much burned out. I got sick of playing and watching people wipe. I got sick of getting bunkered by the same guy I had just shot out, and catching 3 -4 in the head point blank while he was at it. I noticed that I spent more time being angry while I was playing than I spent having fun.

And, in the middle of that, the SP incident began. Smaller companies that we loved doing business were stopping gun production. Cheap electros flooded the market. This was great for spoiled punks of slightly less affluence. Some days at work I would notice that there were more Agglets than 'normal' people.

As was stated before, these kids ( yes I'm sorry. . . MOST of them are under the age of 18) tend to follow a set cycle. Discover paintball, get wealthy parents to give them the best of everything right off the bat. They had little to no self discipline. They over shot. They pushed the rules. They generally 'd people off. Their parents payed the shop bills and my paycheck. These players would go from paintball 'zero' to self-proclaimed 'hero' in about six to eight moths. Within a year and a half they were done with the sport. As soon as one got out of paintball, he was replaced by two more. It got to the point that, if you were over 21, you were either someones father, worked at the field, or were (according to the agglets) some N00b with a private group that really should let the agglets play just ONE game with them. . just for fun. . .

By 2005 I'd had enough. I'd put too much of my time and resources into a sport that I felt was headed downhill. I finished my degree and started work in 'the real world'. Maybe once a year I'd go out with a couple friends and play some walk on ball. To many people, "overshooting" was more than 6 breaks, and there was no real penalty for it. You could tell that, with some, tempers were boiling from time to time.

We'd have fun, but my sorta- celebrity status at the field would inadvertently lead to my other pet peeve- - equipment problems. New players are obviously exempt- - but if you've been playing paintball for a year and own your own equipment- - know how to chronograph and maintain your marker. Don't track me down in between games 'cause "he's that guy that can fix everything". However, this is my fault and is not indicative of the problems with the paintball world.

Anyway, I haven't played since 2008 and it's not because of cash flow or economy. I have, however, kept up with the what's happening in the paintball world- - through my buddy that still owns the field, and through weekly lurkings on AO, MCB, etc.. I see many of my old paintball buddies regularly. Out of 10-15 guys, two play semi- regularly.



Now, I said all that to say this: Based off my own experiences and the experiences of my friends, here's what I think should be done / is being done right.

1. Slow the game back down.

I feel this is already happening. Decreasing ROF limits in tournament circuits is a good thing, IMO. I'd like to see it slower at the field level, for sure. Get rid of ramping. Period. Semi only, as fast as you can pull the trigger. IF you can eliminate ramping and the return of the 'cheater' software, great. If not, go for the hopper. Ban any hopper that will feed over a certain rate: Rotor? love it, but buh-bye. Stick an old VL revolution on your EGO or whatever in semi only.

Fields rental packages: Bring back the pump rentals! When you're booking a church group, give them a lower cost option to have everyone play pump. They will have more fun, I promise. I've played with several people through their first pump games, and the reports have been overwhelming positive. The one negative comment has always been " I'd love to get my own pump, but there's not enough people to play pump with to justify me buying one."

Hold players accountable. Bring back overshooting rules for rec play. People don't actually enjoy getting lit up like a christmas tree, I promise. Stop it. If players will not learn self control and discipline, then they need to go back to lazer tag. Or nerf.


2. Resurgence of pump play. - - what's being done right.

This is already happening- - pump divisions in tournament play, new markers on the market. Five years ago there wasn't much of a pump option between 'plastic' and a nice phantom. People were not willing to take a $350 plunge on a phantom when they didn't know if they would ever have pump only games available. The azodin pump, the Check-it snipers, and the return of the Trracer are AWESOME steps in the right direction. Help people realize that they don't have to get caught up in the arms race.

Actually, This is what has me posting right now- - - I've been rebuilding my old Trracer, and getting my 'pseudo sniper ready to play. I'm thinking it might be time for me to test the waters again.



3. What's wrong.

My opinion should be obvious if you've read the whole post but for those of you just joining us, I believe that we need to focus catering to a more mature demographic. Overprivileged children have rapidly changing tastes-- - They are in and out of paintball and on to the next hobby in no time flat. The result is that you have a never ending cycle of immature players. This has shifted many peoples' view of paintball. It's now viewed more as a children's game. Bring back the game to those players that actually have to work to play. Those that play because they love it and they choose to spend their free time and money in paintball, versus those that do it 'cause they can, and will spend mommy and daddy's cash on it just as readily as they will on anything else.


Focus of improving the experience or 'fun level' versus the amount of money / time invested.


4. Compromise?

I'll compromise everything I've said if it would save the sport.

However, If people do not have fun playing a game that costs lots of money. . . . . . . . then they will not spend their money on that game. It's pretty simple. Figure out what is fun about paintball and enhance that. Figure out what is not fun about paintball, and minimize that. All of the above is my opinion ( and the opinion of others I've talked to) of what is fun and what is not.

[Old School 626]

Along with the posts above I add this nugget.

I'm an "older" player, mid 40's to be exact. I started playing in the late 80's and have taken breaks from the sport at least once. I play 4-8 times a year now with this sport competing with golf, mountain biking and various ocean sports competing for my free time and my money. I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.

[breg]

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm a bit older myself... 30. Basically I saw where we were, where we are, and where we are heading... I just want to take my kids paintballing one day.

And, for the record... I agree with 99.99% of everythin said so far. The biggest point I have seen in this thread on here and other forums is athat we need to start policing ourselves.

....and...

To stop treating the new players like mobile targets.

That is the biggest thing I have noticed across the boards.

[155mmPaladin]

I play with mostly Cockers of various types and now my newly aquired Emag. I'm just a recball player whos used to play alot of scenario games and tried a couple of local tourneys. Against guys with their $1200 EGO's and being almost 40 I can run faster than most half my age and hold my own better than most of the tourny players I find at the field.

Age is the factor IMHO about these new players. I can play down to the level of a first timer not get aggressive and enjoy the game. Younger kids that have all of mommy and daddy's money and sling paint with no reguard of who the opponet is puts a bad taste in new players mouths. They think it's fun to shoot up noobs that decide to enter their turf. Thats one of the main reasons I like going to a field, to put the young punks in check. I come out with a maker whose design is over 10 years old plus only shoots SEMI and they think "easy target" this will be easy. Such as today was going head to head with one of the D2 guys on the opposite team. Young, had a EGO, alot of paint, and a cockyness.......all the way to the dead box.

When I go against the noobies they don't see all the flashy markers and young players. They see a older guy with a odd operating marker system, a smile, and a non-intimidating persona. I take them out, teach them a couple of skills, and play to thier level. Then make sure they had FUN.

I don't think it's a good idea to mix the tourny guys with the birthday parties and chruch group unless the tourny players are seperated. But they all will try to stick together and where's the fun in that for the Noobies?

As for fields if the Refs allow a shooting gallery then they aren't doing their JOB! Just my .02.

[Smokee_2_7]

Along with the posts above I add this nugget.

I'm an "older" player, mid 40's to be exact. I started playing in the late 80's and have taken breaks from the sport at least once. I play 4-8 times a year now with this sport competing with golf, mountain biking and various ocean sports competing for my free time and my money. I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.

Excellent point.*

Waiting around for disorganized staff is really not acceptable. *If a field advertises that it opens at 9 with the *first game at 10, then there better be a pretty good reason why I'm sitting on my butt waiting to play at 10:30. Especially if I'm laying more to play 'all day'.*

Not fun, and any business that aims to keep it's clientele had better learn to operate as advertised.*

Now, in the spirit of this thread, I'd like to propose a solution.

PROBLEM:
Players do not enjoy waiting for games when they should be playing.

CAUSES:
Staff does not have a plan to get players 'checked in', safety briefed, and chronographed in a timely fashion. *Delays are often caused by:
*
** * 1. Disorganized business practices.*
*I could write a book here but I'm not. *Suffice to say this rests on the shoulders of management / owners.*

** * 3. *Players arriving just before the first game's start time, and the staff's willingness to wait for those extra players.*

** * 3. Problems with one or more marker's over the chronograph. *This may be a rental fleet maintenance issue. *That needs to be addressed by management long before Saturday morning.*
Often times the chrono issue is a player with his/ hers own ( often brand new) marker. In my experience, this was more likely a player that had just bought their new brass eagle, etc. from Wal Mart the night before. *Inexperienced player*+ brand new marker ( perhaps of questionable quality) = no clue how to adjust velocity, let alone change hammer springs to lower a hot 'blowback on C02. *I've also seen countless players show up at the chrono with no means to attach their hopper to the gun and no idea how to properly load paintballs.*
This is going to happen, and should not be frowned upon. It's part of being a newbie in ANY hobby / sport. *It's also understandable and desirable that the staff wants to make sure that these new players have a good experience, and that experience relies on someone helping them out with their gear.*


Unfortunately, these problems are *often managed *to the benefit of few at the expense of many.*

SOLUTIONS

I propose that a given field make it clear in it's communication that games are planned and run on time, with no or very few exceptions. *Schedule out the whole day if you have to. Post the field schedule like a bus schedule, if that's what it takes.*

If the field opens at nine with first game at 10, *and there are ANY players ready to play, then the staff needs to have them on the field. *If that means the first game is 1v1 while there's 20 more late comers in staging, then so be it.*

It should be made clear that players with their own gear are responsible for knowing how to assemble, adjust, and use that gear. * It would be in the business's best interest to try and have staff available to help these customers, but not to essentially penalize the customers who know how be prepared for a paintball game----- are paying for a full day of play.*

I knowThis sounds harsh, but these are the things that contribute to that '30 minutes deciding what field to play'. It's VERY rare that any given group of players will UNANIMOUSLY want to play one specific field next. If the ref tries to please everyone at all times, then you have very few games that actually take place. *If games start every 20 minutes, then the people who never clean their gun, didn't bring Allen wrenches to tighten that bottom line, and just generally fail at planning will get to play less games than those that are prepared. * Eventually the unprepared players figure it out and get there on time ready to resulting on a better experience for everyone, or they are replaced on the field by other players that do. *Regardless, over time your player base becomes better and more self-reliant.*

As far as zit faced kids ( and staff in general) go..... reward them for a job well done, and be specific. Give a good ref five bucks at the end of the day and tell him why:
**" hey, I really appreciate the way you ran the games today. I know you have a lot of friends out here and that they keep pounding you with questions about gun XYZ. But I think you dod a really great job of focusing on the group and making sure we all had a good time."

When the other refs learn that lil' Johnny makes an extra $20 per day because he keeps the group moving, they will follow suit.*
Then, tell the same thing to the manager.*

If you have a bad experience, talk to the manager and tell them why-- specifically. Try to avoid generalized tirades.*

Just remember, everybody gets used to getting ******'* at. *It always does a lot more good to hear what you did right every now and then.*


Carl.*

PS. Typed, copied and pasted on my phone, hence the mysteriously gratuitous use of asterisks.

[death594]

hi there i see im probably one of the first "kid" players posting. i am 20 now and started playing in 2006-07 some where in there. so i really didnt know the good old glory days. one of the biggest things i have seen happen at my local fields is that half the staff doesnt punish anybody. one of the best games i have played this year is where i saw the worst of it and made me start thinking. here is the short version my team was doing good the whole day prity much owning the field all day. the last battle of the day comes around and it was like we were being stoned from people shooting hot. one guy next to me we were at the back of the field reinserting was getting bloody welts threw a tac vest and rags from players more than 150 feet away. when i left the field i found a ref just sitting down and told her she said " yea i know you are not the first person to tell me." WHAT THE . yes it was a hot day and there was people using lower end markers and CO2 that i know can bounce radically on hot days but a 98 custom doesnt hold a pattern the size of a tea saucer across the field.

my ideas to fix the problem
1. as stated above tip good refs i am a lifeguard and a good comment from some one or a tip for doing a good job means alot and makes you want to do it more.

2.separate experienced players from newer players. if the more experienced playes can lower their game to play with the new guys then let them do it if not dont go near the new guys yea you can mark up alot of guys but wheres the fun in no challenge. one of my first times i played there was a guy at my local field older experienced player 30- 40 area. who had all the top of the line gear Jersey pants ego you name it he had it. it was one of the best feelings i have ever had when i got him out. late after playing some more with him later he told me he went out there with half a hopper just to shoot off the break to make people think he was playing hard. then got in stupid positions to let newer players get that "trophy" player out. i think we need more player like him in the sport. but that will be a while

3. have some thing like a frequent player card some thing so that field owners can see how much you are playing and put you with a group about your skill level and possibly give breaks on prices like buy 50 cases and get one 1/2 off and so on.

4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

5. punish rule breakers i dont care if they did help build the field or not and if they play alot then they know the rules and the code of conduct hold them responsible for their actions.

i know i will think of more later but until then.

i know im not a good speller guy and my grammar is probably prity bad but i just got off of work with screaming children so a little slack is appreciated thank you and have a good night.