Need opinions, need input. The state of paintball.

[breg]

^^ No, no... your age is not a factor... I want input from everyone that is willing to give it to me.

And you make several valid points.

[breg]

Thank you everyone for your input so far...
The things I notice it keep comming down to are as follows (bear in mind that this is also posted on AO and TechPB and MCB)

1. Price. It seems that in many cases for a day of play things are just too over priced the whole way around. I realize that fields need to make enough money to pay the staff, pay insurance, keep the fields and equipment in good repair, etc. I believe it was suggested that they offer better quality paint for the price or increase feild fees to cover.

2. De-emphasize electros. It seems that many people feel that doing away with ramping in general will not be enough. And, I for one miss the days of the good ol' Mags and Cockers. I will agree to the point that playing on a field with mechs will definately cut down on over shooting as well as over all paint consumption.

3. We need to police ourselves. That is probably the biggest one that I keep finding. Or the one that sticks out the most to me. Does this mean that we need to be able to alert the ref or field staff to a player that is habitually over shooting players or cheating? Either way it means that we have to lead by example.

4. The mixing of exp levels. No, I don't think it is fair the the green players to have 10 of them goin up agains an expierenced 5 man team. How this can be fixed... well I dunno. for one, the refs need to break up the teams to make it fair to the newer people. Just basically do like we used to do in Albuquerque..."you go up, you go down, you go up, you go down... etc." And do not be afraid to swtich a player's side. If you notice one side really hosing the the other side... pull one of the more expierenced players to the other side. That occured as well. It helped. Also, there could be dedicated practice days for your higher level players.

5. The staff needs to enforce the rules fairly for all. This is something of a hot button issue. We have all seen it. Little Johhny Paintball comes to the field with the newest paintball gun his parents can afford, usually costing more than several of the cars inthe parking lot, sets is brand new gun to the highest rate of fire possible proceeds to buy a metric butt load of paint and then overshoots every body chronos his gun right at 300, ignores hits, ignores safety rules, and then throws his weight around becuse he (his parents) has money. And the staff tolerates it because he (his parents) spend so much at the shop and on the field. This has to stop. Please don't think that I am pointing fingers because I am not. I realize that not every kid with a new high end gun is atool... just Johnny Paintball. Or they turn a blind eye to the shens from the big tourney team. The rules have to be enofrced and there have to be penalities that are applied to all who break them.

I really appriecate all the input so far. The interesting thing is that even though I have posted this on AO, TechPB, and MCB the feed back has been roughly the same. Do I miss paintball the was it was in 2002? yes. Do I harbor some grand illusion of bringing back it's heyday? Not so much. If we go back to the way things were then we went backwards. We have to go forwards. Paintball has been with us for nigh on thirty years. In that space of time it has gone form a fringe hobby using "marking pistols" intended for marking trees or cattle to a multi-million dollar industry that is played and enjoyed on every continent in many countires. From all of this we all see there are things that are wrong. We all see the things that are right. What we need to do as paintballers weather you are a rec baller, a hardcore tourney player, a tach-ed out mil simmer, Johnny paintball, or your kid brother looking timidly at his rental Tippmann; is set the example. Don't bonus ball, if you are playing against a bunch of newbs set your gun to semi or go grab that old sypder out of your gear bag, switch sides to the disadvanaged side so they will see that someone is willing to take a hit with them, or just treat the new players AND expierenced players like you want them to come back next weekend.

This is not done and is it far from over.

Keep it comming.

breg

[kobeastly]

Lots of reasons the industry is suffering though I think the main one is the economy. Entertainment is the first thing to go on a reasonable persons budget when things get tight.

I don't like the current ramping and rate of fire rules these days but that really doesn't keep me off the field.

I think some of the manufacturers may be suffering due to guns really not getting any better. A gun from a few years ago shoots the same as this years, it just looks a bit different. There really isn't any reason to go buy a new one. Other than my TPX the last 10-15 guns I've bought have been used.

I kindof agree with one of breg's points. I have an emag, viking, cyborg and a good asortment of bushies but it wouldn't break my heart at all to see paintball go back to mechanical guns being the norm. I'd love to see a purely mech league or even a single trigger league.

[OPBN]

I would play more paintball if so much time was not spent waiting for the field to get their act together between games, to get us all thru the chrono line, give us the safety breifing and figure out where we're playing next and then to have some zit faced kid yelling to get us to hurry up after he/the field took 30 minutes to get us our next field.

I was going to mention this point as well in my posting, but had limited time. Keeping the games moving is essential to keeping peoples attention, especially experienced players.

1. I don't want to sit around discussing every aspect of a game for 10 minutes that actually lasted all of 2 minutes.
2. I came to play paintball, not listen to the dbag ref who has been probably playing for less time than me regale us all with his past adventures.
3. Explain to people to that the time in the staging area is time to reload, refill etc., when the is done, than BS. Nothing chaps my butt more than to leave the staging area, go to a field to play and have the ref take a break after one short game to let 1/2 the people go back and reload because they came to the field with 1 pod of paint and 1/4 or a tank of air/co2
4. Train your staff to change things up a little and be creative. Instead of starting everyone at the same spot every single time and playing the same games, mix it up. By the same token, make sure the refs know where they are going and have an idea of what they are doing before they get there.

There's probably more, but I am probably getting redundant. The main issue is that some people drive a fair ways to play and they want to get as much playing time in as possible. I have driven 2 hours to get to a field and in the 6 hours that I was there, maybe played 8 games. Considering some of the games were terribly lopsided and ended within minutes, this is horrible.

One thing to consider, and I don't remember it being brought up, is communicating your thoughts to the owner or manager of the field. As a customer, I figure my feedback to the owner is valuable, so I freely give it. In the case of the ref taking forever to start games and bs'ing about his awesomeness, I sat with the owner for a couple of minutes after we had gotten our gear together and expressed my concerns. They actually seemed pretty receptive and did go on to explain that the ref that day was new and most of their regulars were at some show. While it didn't make the day more enjoyable, it made me wililng to come back and see what the regular refs were like and probably emphasized the importance to them of having good, well trained staff on hand no matter what. Doing this also gives you a good feel of how things may be in the future. If a field owner blows you off or is patronizing, my time there is limited as I realize they aren't interested in bettering their field or accepting input. You should also let a filed owner know when they or their staff are doing a good job. Most owners aren't out there playing, so they need input from someone else other than their refs.

[Loneassassin]

Lots of good points here. I haven't seen this one posted yet so I'll throw it in:

I think one way that the game could be improved would be to establish paint limits as a kind of norm. I'm not sure what a good standard would be, but I do think that getting away from people shooting 6 pods + a hopper per game would help level the playing field between those with limitless funding (and firepower) and those who play with a rental and/or play on a limited budget.

This would go further than rof limits or doing away with ramping, in my opinion. In my experience, playing against people ramping at 12.5 vs. 15 or even uncapped semi doesn't really ammount to much difference. The thing that remains the same is that there is typically a very high volume of paint being fired at all times on your average field. That gets expensive, because in a lot of ways you have to match the firepower of your opponents in order to compete. (unless of course, you are a lot more skilled than your opponents.)

I think that if it became a norm to only be allowed, say, 2 pods and a hopper, people could still shoot quickly if they want to, but they'd have to have some control over it. They'd be less likely to just sit in the back and pour paint downfield while their front guy goes up and bunkers all the cowering noobies.

I also think that increasing the size of fields and taking the emphasis away from filling lanes with paint would also help lower the cost of playing - and would reward players willing to use athleticism and cunning to get people out rather than raw firepower. I think this would also reduce the "intimidation" factor that new players experience. In a perfect world there would be all-pump games available to newer players at every field - but I realize that's not likely to happen.

So, for the short version - we need to take measures to lower the volume of paint being fired; to reduce the incentive for rich people to just lazily rain paint all over the field, while a lot of people struggle financially to play the game as is.

[hill160881]

Its simple and a combination of things.

Economy
Competition
Generational
Greedy field owners and companies.
Industry stagnation

The economy has been in decline since Katrina in 2005. That is when the US started shedding craft and industrial jobs. The market followed in 07/08 and things continues to get worse.

Competition from video games and the Internet combined with a lack of funds and people just stop playing paint-ball and start WOW or Call of Duty or.................

This young generation prefer less strenuous activities, they are LAZY couch potatoes.

When paint costs a field owner $15 to $30 a case, why are they selling it for $50 to $80? Greedy bastards. This gets worse with the size of the event. Look at D-day and Living Legends. Then there the SP in the industry that nearly destroy the marker market with there greed.

The industry has been wrapping the same marker internals with a different skin for years without coming out with something truly new. They use the same technology as years gone by and Hype it up with advertising.

Agglets are usually from a wealthy family in my experience, and if the sport were more affordable it would drive them out because most wealthy kids wont hang out with average income kids. There stuff is not cool enough, and they think they are better some how.(this is a wild theory)

[Smokee_2_7]

....
my ideas to fix the problem
1. as stated above tip good refs i am a lifeguard and a good comment from some one or a tip for doing a good job means alot and makes you want to do it more.

2.separate experienced players from newer players. if the more experienced playes can lower their game to play with the new guys then let them do it if not dont go near the new guys yea you can mark up alot of guys but wheres the fun in no challenge. one of my first times i played there was a guy at my local field older experienced player 30- 40 area. who had all the top of the line gear Jersey pants ego you name it he had it. it was one of the best feelings i have ever had when i got him out. late after playing some more with him later he told me he went out there with half a hopper just to shoot off the break to make people think he was playing hard. then got in stupid positions to let newer players get that "trophy" player out. i think we need more player like him in the sport. but that will be a while

3. have some thing like a frequent player card some thing so that field owners can see how much you are playing and put you with a group about your skill level and possibly give breaks on prices like buy 50 cases and get one 1/2 off and so on.

4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

5. punish rule breakers i dont care if they did help build the field or not and if they play alot then they know the rules and the code of conduct hold them responsible for their actions.
....

Thank you for such a well thought out post!! I wish that I had been able to express myself that clearly ten years ago (if you'd like to see, look up my posts. I've been floating around here since before AGD took over the website).

It's great to see the views of someone who has discovered paintball since I've left it. After reading through your post, I can say that people are not any different now versus "then". When guys reminisce about 'the good ol' days', just remember that those memories tend to be a little. . . polarized (filtered).

There has always been the kind of player that would push the limits for whatever reason. Intentionally shooting hot has been going on forever. Often, it's not been handled properly at the field. This is something that has to change.

Death, the kind of hits you're talking about: What is their effect on a first time newbie? Would they think "ah, that's just the way it is sometimes"? NO! They don't know the difference between a 'normal' hit and a 'nasty' hit. Enough of those bloody welts on ANY first time paintballer will discourage them from coming back. Your average newbie barely has a grasp on what the FPS limit is, and no clue how that number was determined and why it's important. There is a HUGE difference between a normal paintball bruise and the 'weltzilla' acquired from a 400fps rock. All Johnny or Susie newbie knows is whether or not they had fun. If you ask them, 90% will say "sure, it was fun". Keep in mind that most people, especially young males, will stretch the truth in order to keep from being viewed as a wimp. The proof is in whether or not they come back a few weeks later.

You're correct- - - the staff has to be trained to handle situations like this, and have the cajhones to step on someones' feelings and check the gun during the game. Someone that 'mysteriously' cannot keep their marker below 285 (or whatever the field limit is) gets their 'defective' gun banned from the field until it has been 'repaired'.

Anyone caught adjusting their velocity on field should be asked to leave immediately, no refunds. Unlike 'forgetting' and lifting their goggles 'cause Robbie Newbie got really really excited and forgot, players that intentionally shoot hot are exhibiting malicious intent. They are TRYING to hurt people. You can't "forget" to NOT turn your velocity up. Often, you have to carry an allen wrench in your pocket, find some cover, and then adjust whatever reg or restrictor you happen to have. This act shows an intentional disregard for others' safety. It should be treated as such.

If a field actually enforces these rules, then your problem players either shape up, or stop playing. Either way, the games at that field just got better. Besides, nothing discourages a potential cheater better than seeing someone publicly booted from the field.

Now. Separating players based on experience levels. I hear this ( and have said this ) thousands of times.

It's a great idea. I have never been to a field that didn't say that they tried to do this.

But.

Let's say you run your own field. You're the boss. You have two referees scheduled for Saturday morning, and players are showing up. One of your refs calls in sick. You have to run the register, work the shop, and answer the phone.

Now, the players.

You have five walk-ons that are all at least semi regular. They all have their own gear, ranging from EGOs to 98's. The experience ranges from D2 down to that guy that comes out about once a month for the past 6 months. Twenty minutes before first game time, you have a minivan pull up with three 12 year old girls, none of which have ever played before. Everyone has payed for a full days' play, and the girls are really excited about being on the same team with their BFFs.

What do you do?

It stinks because there is no right answer. Hopefully, your regular players are stand-up individuals, and would love to help make sure the three newbs have a wonderful time. Unfortunately, the truth is that you will probably have a couple that really don't want to waste their saturday paying to teach a paintball class. As paying customers, they are entitled to that position, right?

Of course, the safe bet is to alternate games 2 v 3 for the regulars (not great, but OK. . ) and then 1 v 2 for the girls ( not so much fun for them). But THEN, you've got regular players upset because they spent over half the day waiting for a field / ref.

We let children play beginning at age 10. Is this too young? Not necessarily. However, do believe that the age and maturity level of players is something that needs to be looked at very closely.

4. i agree with what other people say about marker control no one likes getting light up but you know it happens you cant call back the balls in the air. but try to get people in to shooting in bursts so one if you do hit some one their shouldnt be much at one time. one way to also get it across is remind players that it will save them paint as well. like i said though im not really for or against ramp all the markers i have owned after my 98 have had it i think its more of if the rule is semi than make sure every one is in semi and punish those who are not.

You're right. You can't call paint back once it's left the barrel. Learning to shoot in bursts is a good start. You can tell people to shoot in bursts, but I promise they won't listen. Folks get pumped up on adrenaline, and get trigger happy. We have ALL done it. By the time you see the first break, there are 10 more on the way.
We have to have some kind of rule to police people by. Lack of an enforced rule is what got us to this point. Bring back the 3 break rule. You break more than three balls on someone, you're out too. That WILL get people to shoot in bursts. We've got to hold people accountable!

....
One thing to consider, and I don't remember it being brought up, is communicating your thoughts to the owner or manager of the field. As a customer, I figure my feedback to the owner is valuable, so I freely give it. In the case of the ref taking forever to start games and bs'ing about his awesomeness, I sat with the owner for a couple of minutes after we had gotten our gear together and expressed my concerns. They actually seemed pretty receptive and did go on to explain that the ref that day was new and most of their regulars were at some show. While it didn't make the day more enjoyable, it made me wililng to come back and see what the regular refs were like and probably emphasized the importance to them of having good, well trained staff on hand no matter what. Doing this also gives you a good feel of how things may be in the future. If a field owner blows you off or is patronizing, my time there is limited as I realize they aren't interested in bettering their field or accepting input. You should also let a filed owner know when they or their staff are doing a good job. Most owners aren't out there playing, so they need input from someone else other than their refs.

Spot on. I had mentioned something similar in one of my long posts above:

....
As far as zit faced kids ( and staff in general) go..... reward them for a job well done, and be specific. Give a good ref five bucks at the end of the day and tell him why:
**" hey, I really appreciate the way you ran the games today. I know you have a lot of friends out here and that they keep pounding you with questions about gun XYZ. But I think you dod a really great job of focusing on the group and making sure we all had a good time."

When the other refs learn that lil' Johnny makes an extra $20 per day because he keeps the group moving, they will follow suit.*
Then, tell the same thing to the manager.*

If you have a bad experience, talk to the manager and tell them why-- specifically. Try to avoid generalized tirades.*

Just remember, everybody gets used to getting ******'* at. *It always does a lot more good to hear what you did right every now and then.*

I think the first thing the industry (at the field / shop level) needs to do is focus on the difference between RECREATIONAL paintball and TOURNAMENT paintball.

RECREATIONAL paintball has been hailed as the great equalizer. A sport where you can have grandfathers and granddaughters on the same field, in the same game.
If this is what we want ( and it is what I believe the RECREATIONAL paintball world should be like) then we need to develop a rule set that EVERY player can be held accountable to.

If a person comes out to play RECREATIONAL paintball, then they are subject to these rules. If Johnny-Wannabee-Lasoya and his "team" need to play with each other for "practice" because they are going to start playing "tournaments", then the rec field open play day is not the place for that. As a field, offer a special time slot or special day. We (speaking as the field I used to work with) tried that for a time. We called it "Team Practice" night. Here were the rules:

No individual players. Two or more man TEAMS only.
Not for open play: Scrimmages, drilling, etc only.
We offered discounts on field paint at the case price, and discounted air.
We provided a staff member to assist with any needs on the field (i.e. not referee, but help with drills, lights, etc.)
We charged a small field fee- - $5 per person. BYOP, if you like.

Sounds amazing, right? It's almost like a light sponsorship for any two people that want to ride together and call themselves a team!

Here's what happened:

Within a month, 85% of the players that had shown up for 'team night' stopped. It turned out that they were not interested in practicing lanning, crawling, snap shooting, or scrimmaging against other teams. Most of them were only interested on banding up with their buddies and playing as a "team" against other disorganized walkons and newbies. Actually, there were several of them that got upset because there was not a ref available to chrono their gun for them, run the games, and wipe the paint off their goggles in between games!
Team practice night faded away after a few months due to lack of interest.


Anyway, keep the recreational sport separate from the tournament team sport.

I think that if it became a norm to only be allowed, say, 2 pods and a hopper, people could still shoot quickly if they want to, but they'd have to have some control over it. They'd be less likely to just sit in the back and pour paint downfield while their front guy goes up and bunkers all the cowering noobies.

I think that limiting paint during Rec games is a great idea.



I'll address price and 'Greedy Field Owners' in another post.

DocCarl

[155mmPaladin]

You know one other thing I haven't seen on here is where is it written that a ref has to be present on the field in order for you to play a game? Is it because of insurance reasons?

I still play that honor ball system on my field. Who ever gets out first just got voluenteered to be the ref for that game to point out those not so obvious hits or end the game.

A field local to me had a ref just for each field at their location, so there would be 4 or 5 games going on at once. Unfortunatly it closed down because the property got sold. Now the local field left only play one game type at a time with all that want to join.

All I want to do is have a good time and get the most bang for my buck

[Smokee_2_7]

You know one other thing I haven't seen on here is where is it written that a ref has to be present on the field in order for you to play a game? Is it because of insurance reasons?

I still play that honor ball system on my field. Who ever gets out first just got voluenteered to be the ref for that game to point out those not so obvious hits or end the game.

A field local to me had a ref just for each field at their location, so there would be 4 or 5 games going on at once. Unfortunatly it closed down because the property got sold. Now the local field left only play one game type at a time with all that want to join.

All I want to do is have a good time and get the most bang for my buck

Honor ball is awesome, as long as everyone follows it.

Hypothetically, would you put five 11 year old boys who had never played before onto your field by themselves and tell them to referee themselves?

I THINK that referees are covered in the insurance requirements, but I'm not sure.

'One ref at a field, players float' can work-- with a certain type of player. Unfortunately, many players tend to camp out in the staging area and then wonder why they got so few games, unless there is someone to gently move them along.



Tips for fields to operate more efficiently can go on for months--- and you'll always have good examples and bad examples of businesses in any given field.

What are things about the sport in general that are keeping people away? What's wrong with 'the game'?

The economy has been mentioned several times. Obviously, that is one of the bigger reasons, at least it os of you have to buy 2 cases a day and carry $2,000 worth of gear on the field every game.
But, there are lots of people that have not been affected as harshly--- and yet they still don't play.


Why?

[Army]

It was those dang Garner boys!!!

.....heh, someone had to say it

Acceptance of ramping, lackluster reffing (to include tourney's), and overall expense.

Kids getting their first taste of P'ball start off with a Wal-Mart special, and are amazed and highly disappointed that their new Brass Eagle blaster is comparable to the stone age....especially so when they get blazed by the latest electro ramping beast, costing 100X what their clear plastic POS did.

Instant ''wanna go home'' and never play again pain.

Not to mention, it is/was hard to get media coverage that was positive. Huntington Beach was a tremendous start....then it went bust.

Can't put the Genie back in the bottle, but I think the game can be steered back on course again.

[teichild]

I have been playing paintball for about 13 years and i have seen alot of changes to the game. I think the biggest thing i have seen that has had a negitive effect on the game is the players and their attitudes.

When i first started playing PB i had a hammer plus (pump gun for those that arnt familiar) and i had to play against people with ALOT more exp and way better equipment than me. This led to me becomeing a very good player. i watched what they were doing and how it was done. Eventualy i got better and ended up on their team. Now from what i have read so far in most threads is that people feel like we should segrigate the noobies from the exp players. i think thats a bad idea. they should be grped with people that have alot of knowlege and better gear because it will promote the growth of a better player. Odviously the better players need to realize thats what they are doing not just being fed easy targets.

Basicly the only real solution to the problems PB is faceing right now is the players. If people can learn and exercize self-control, then most of the hardships the sport faces will fix themselves. A helping hand from a better player goes a long way too. When a new player and exspecily a younger player goes home after a day of paintball and they are asked "so how was it?" and they tell a story about how this cool guy helped them and showed them some stuff, not only will the kid wanna return and learn more on how to play and improve but the parents will be more than happy to let them go.

Its really no different than any other sport. we need the better and more seasoned players to, for lack of a better word... mentor our new and younger players. when we see something that is unbecomming of a good and self-controlling player, its our duty to after the game take it apon yourself to try and help the guy out or give some insite. Just take care to be nice and considerate about it, we cant leave it up to the Refs to take care of it all the time.

Just how i see it anyways.... i could be wrong and yes i know i cant spell to save my x-mag

[Sniper Steve]

Good thread, i thought I would throw in a solution that I haven't seen on here to the reffing problem that comes up. The field that I play at not only uses regular refs the owner has given out what are called "player ref cards" He informs the players at the game that there are these players refs on the field, and says that if needed they can step into situations to help or if they see someone cheating that they have authority to act. Most regular players know that these player refs are from my team and a couple other teams, but it still seems to cause people to play better because they don't know if they are being watched. Sometimes I think people cheat when they don't see the refs around but if they don't know if they are being watched by a player ref it seems to keep people more honest, I have even carried a chrono on field and randomly checked guns. It seems to keep players more honest and can cut some costs of the field owner if he doesn't have to pay more refs.

Just thought I would throw this out there, I know that the field that I go to isn't the only ones to do this but if there isn't anyone who hasn't heard doing it this way.

[ghost271]

Im 37 and started playing '90-'91. I am glad that I got to see the sport evolve and see the technology increase. Im not going to get into the whole Smart Parts argument, but that's when I knew the industry was heading for disaster. When once companies shared ideas an inovations for the love of our sport, to one where everybody is trying to cut each others throats to get another dollar, it was a fast spiral down.

As a player, once electros became cheap and disposable, every 12 year old would walk onto the field thinking he was the best because his gun could ramp real fast. The field owners loved it because the money poured in as kids needed to feed their 'beasts'. For years we played with only our cockers, pumps, but the time came when we were getting tired of getting lit up by little kids wiping and over shooting us. So the options were to quit or fight fire with fire. It wasn't long before the same kids who once enjoyed over shooting us, got their medicine back in return ten fold.

I remember about 7 years ago, I recommended to our field owner to start 'pump only games'. My intention was so that the new kids could experience the fun that I had starting out, without the fear of being over shot. His reply to me was, " We'll make no money if we do that."

And now you see new kids getting lit up and not coming back. The speedballers at our field have such a poor turnout on the weekends that they walk over to the rec fields and then proceed to light people up, then leave again so they have something to shoot at. When we played scenarios, we used semi only. After about the third one we refused to be the 'whiping boy' to everyone else with their full auto Tippmanns and the Ego10s. So now when we play scenarios, we put our guns on Ramp or Autoresponse.

I'm hoping that the attitude of the younger kids gets to the point where they'll just stop showing up because they're getting tired of us older players handing them their asses week after week.
I think XBall and speedball and the DerDer videos that followed that praised cheating and gun throwing promoted the 'cool kids' to follow suit with similar behaviour at their own fields.

I miss the days when you could punch a cocky kid in the face and put him in line. Nowadays, they just act tough and then threaten to charge you with assault if you hit them. Our politically correct society is shooting itself in the foot and we see it in our youth.

As a sport, I hope the Speedball-esque games die and people can get back to the basics of what once made this such a great game.

[OPBN]

I miss the days when you could punch a cocky kid in the face and put him in line. Nowadays, they just act tough and then threaten to charge you with assault if you hit them. Our politically correct society is shooting itself in the foot and we see it in our youth..

God I hope you're kidding.

[ghost271]

No. I wish I was too. However seeing the arrogant 'tough guy' schtick that I see these days, its whats needed. You mouth somebody off, get in their face, swearing at them, and insulting them....thats exactly what they deserve.

How did you stop a bully from bothering you 20 years ago ? You beat the **** out of him after school and he never bugged you again. Nowadays, we need to wear a pink shirt, and just talk about it. Everything will work out ok..........right....?