Need beta testers for efficiency inserts

[tasker89]

Hey Gang!

I haven't posted here in like...forever...but this is one thread I just had to drop in on. The inserts that you are doing were done once before and I had a hand in it. Many moons ago I played early NPPL ball with SWARM (Illinois based team and one of AGD's only factory sponsored teams...SOB's and Jax Warriors being the other two).

Early on when HPA was in its infancy (shortly after John Dale left AGD), all that was readily available were 68cui/3K tanks. A gun running well would struggle to hit 800 shots. Like most of my teammates the ideal number was 1000 shots (what I could clear on vertically mounted 20oz) and so we started looking at ways to go back towards a LVL5 type valve.

Eventually shims and inserts evolved into an aftermarket mod that was sold through Fox River Games. With AGD's approval we actually went so far as to have a run of LVL7 valves built with smaller air chambers. The guns were marketed as HyperMags (get it? HI PER...like high pressure Mag. clever I know) and we sold through that one run of guns before the whole thing fell flat.

We were swimming against the current (LP was becoming all the rage...complete with the SP pseudo-science about ball deformation and such) and although we had a mod that averaged about a 25% increase...players didn't want it.

The pros:
- Improved recharge time.
- Less drop off in rapid fire strings.
- Increased shots per tank.

The cons:
- Sear/bolt wear.
- Harder on paint.
- Before the advent of improvements (ULT) the higher pressure operation resulted in a noticeably heavier (but snappier) trigger pull.

If you ever come across a valve with a laser-engraved Fox and HyperMag text on it...snatch it up. Mag history my friends...albeit a tiny part.

Peace!
Adam

[fierymartel]

post from MCB

Here is a blueprint for an Level 7 Automag powertube and dump chamber.The power tubes are threaded 7/8" x 32 threads per inch, the older power tubes were locktited the newer ones are laser welded to keep them from unscrewing.HyperMag dump chambers were sleeved down from .843" ID to .625" ID.
Most Hypermags were older standard Automags that were converted by Fox Paintball in the early 90's, so they are unmarked on the outside of the valve.

[hill160881]

Very interesting info and consistent with what I have found through trial and error. very cool.

I always wanted to make a power tube that screwed into an old valve and had a larger diameter air passage. There is still an 1/8" to spare in the L7 bolt. That would allow for a lower pressure operation, like people have wanted for a while.

It may be that with todays paint choices the higher pressure wont be such an issue. Also I dont think people were doing the pump thing as much. Or the pistols.

[GEE TEE]

I'm going to have a go at making an insert for my RT Pro valve here in the UK

[hill160881]

The insert for the X/retro-valve is 7/8" long and 3/4" diameter ruff. Approx 3/16" wall thickness with two 1/8" holes to prevent gasses from being trapped. For more exact specs PM me.

Make it out of delrin or PVC. It is pretty easy with a dremal and some patients. But what I do with a dremal others usually think was done with a machine . So it may be harder that I think.

I have plenty of pics to use as reference in my threads.

If you need and advice let me know.

[redlaser666]

Preliminary report on 12g CO2

Here is my first report on this mod.
First the test setup:
Old Minimag valve, opened by the drill and hacksaw method (importat later on)
12g CCI bucket changer on an ASA attached directly to the valve by a 2" nipple
SS body with twistlock Minimag barrel stock, unported, measured as 0.693 bore

The 12g were Brass Eagle brand. They are very inconsistent, so I weighted and empty and then weighted all the other ones. I found they varied by almost 1.5 grams between the highest and lowest.
I picked to use for the test 2 that were the same weight. I used the other ones to set the velocity.

Paint was Draxxus Rec Sport (measured around 0.683 on the widest points 0.676 on the thinner parts)
Test performed in my basement with a room temperature of about 62deg farenheit (not CO2 optimal but still workable.)

Notes:
As i mentioned before, the hacksaw method of opening the vlave works, but its not very efective. I managed to damage the original o-ring, and the hacksaw blade left a 0.040" gap between the powertube and body of the valve. This meant my other o-ring would not seal unless i cranked the PT all the way in. The insert i received was 0.905" long and it would not allow me to screw the PT in enought to seal, so I had to file it down to about 0.860"

Results:
Unmodified vlave (after I had opened it and re attached the PT with the new oring)
31 shots total varying from 209 FPS to 324FPS (really inconsistent, crappy paint? old reg seat?)
average for all the shots 251fps

Modified valve (had to crank the rear adjuster 1.5 turns to get around the same velocity)
Tried it twice to check if ther was a fluke CO2 powerlet. results are from the second time
13 shots (both times) that went from 187fps to 333fps (again inconsistent)
average = 253fps
There was more CO2 remaining in the powerlet after the gun stoped firing, but it seems it didnt have enough pressure for the bolt to go forward.

I can post the detailed chono readings if anyone care to look at them. Also ROF was shoot, write and shoot again (about 5-7 seconds between shots ??)

Conclusion:
This mod is not 12g friendly. The low temperature in my basement probably didnt help, but since the mod required more pressure, the 12g couldnt supply it.

I will try with a 13/3000 ninja tank next to see how running this on HPA may improve the shot count.

[hill160881]

Thanks for the info. Keep the testing going. Try to get a more consistent corno reading before the next test if you can.

The average rounds per 12g at 270 fps I have been told is around 15 shots. I actually developed this mod copying ones already done on 12g C02 mags. They reported almost 60% gains but no one tried it on an electro to see if it would still keep up. Although I have not tested it on a C02 mag yet. It may need to be bigger for the 12g mags.

[GEE TEE]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.

[redlaser666]

Thanks for the info. Keep the testing going. Try to get a more consistent corno reading before the next test if you can.

The average rounds per 12g at 270 fps I have been told is around 15 shots. I actually developed this mod copying ones already done on 12g C02 mags. They reported almost 60% gains but no one tried it on an electro to see if it would still keep up. Although I have not tested it on a C02 mag yet. It may need to be bigger for the 12g mags.

Im going to do a full rebuild of the valve and move the 12g changer a bit farther away from the valve to see if it helps.

[hill160881]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.

You just need a spring 1/2" longer than the bolt face. Then just tune it like normal.

[hill160881]

Im going to do a full rebuild of the valve and move the 12g changer a bit farther away from the valve to see if it helps.

It is best to make sure that the valve is in proper working order before doing these tests. I have had some wired test results my self due to a valve issue.

[GEE TEE]

Thanks for the info

[Ando]

Would the increase in pressure needed by smaller dump chamber affect the way Level10 systems function on X valves, or LvL 10 modified classics/RT's? I'm curious because I'm going to install a Lvl 10 kit on the RT Pro valve I was planning to use an insert with. I'm guessing the anti chop would need re-tuning to work properly.

A longer spring would be needed to keep your bolt at the same hitting force on your paint if the lvl 10 trips. The longer spring will counter react the increased pressure but in doing so would also need an extra bump in velocity to allow the marker to fire.

In my experience with devolumizing the chamber. The more mass you add to the chamber the more velocity is needed to get the marker shooting at your target fps. One thing you need to take in consideration is the Reg Piston. It's only going to allow you to go so far before it starts venting. You need to find a comfortable medium between the 2.

[skyless]

12gram setups

Here is my first report on this mod.
First the test setup:
Old Minimag valve, opened by the drill and hacksaw method (importat later on)
12g CCI bucket changer on an ASA attached directly to the valve by a 2" nipple
SS body with twistlock Minimag barrel stock, unported, measured as 0.693 bore

The 12g were Brass Eagle brand. They are very inconsistent, so I weighted and empty and then weighted all the other ones. I found they varied by almost 1.5 grams between the highest and lowest.
I picked to use for the test 2 that were the same weight. I used the other ones to set the velocity.

Paint was Draxxus Rec Sport (measured around 0.683 on the widest points 0.676 on the thinner parts)
Test performed in my basement with a room temperature of about 62deg farenheit (not CO2 optimal but still workable.)

Notes:
As i mentioned before, the hacksaw method of opening the vlave works, but its not very efective. I managed to damage the original o-ring, and the hacksaw blade left a 0.040" gap between the powertube and body of the valve. This meant my other o-ring would not seal unless i cranked the PT all the way in. The insert i received was 0.905" long and it would not allow me to screw the PT in enought to seal, so I had to file it down to about 0.860"

Results:
Unmodified vlave (after I had opened it and re attached the PT with the new oring)
31 shots total varying from 209 FPS to 324FPS (really inconsistent, crappy paint? old reg seat?)
average for all the shots 251fps

Modified valve (had to crank the rear adjuster 1.5 turns to get around the same velocity)
Tried it twice to check if ther was a fluke CO2 powerlet. results are from the second time
13 shots (both times) that went from 187fps to 333fps (again inconsistent)
average = 253fps
There was more CO2 remaining in the powerlet after the gun stoped firing, but it seems it didnt have enough pressure for the bolt to go forward.

I can post the detailed chono readings if anyone care to look at them. Also ROF was shoot, write and shoot again (about 5-7 seconds between shots ??)

Conclusion:
This mod is not 12g friendly. The low temperature in my basement probably didnt help, but since the mod required more pressure, the 12g couldnt supply it.

I will try with a 13/3000 ninja tank next to see how running this on HPA may improve the shot count.

I would like to give my experience on this type of setup. I have been working on getting the most out of 12grams with my mag, I have 2 different devolumized mags with plastic washer inserts. I found that running 12gs directly into the valve had reduced shots and horrid consistency. I kept trying to make the setup as compact as possible and finally reverted back to using a Micro CA II because it gave the best results and was easy/fun to use. I would get maybe 12-15 running 12gs directly into the valve and the best I got was 25-28 using the micro ca mounted under grip with braided airhose filled with weedwacker line to reduce the ID. I would really like to see the effects of using a palmer reg in various setups to see what the increase in cosistancy/efficency would be. I have been out of the AO scene for a while due to school but ill be back at it trying to break the 30 ball mark with my newly pumped mag. (same mag I hit 28 balls out of a 12g but its now pumped so im hoping with finetuning Ill get that 30) I hope this helps and feel free to pm me with any questions reguarding setup. Also If I used too many plastic washers I was not able to get 280fps without leaking out the reg. Since making my mag pump I have not even come close to breaking the 25 ball mark, but ive not had the time to put the effort in. I think giving the 12gs a bit of room to expand/equalize really helps with efficiency/cosistency, as well as devolumizing the valve.
Hope this is helpfull.

[hill160881]

Thanks much for the advice as you are one of the ones who I spoke with regarding the efficiency increases during the trial and error phase. Thanks again for all your input.