Since the clock is running...

[Flatliner333]

Oh Snap...I think I still have my 20 oz. I could use.

[TOTShadowCompany]

UWL is having a 5 man woodsball for cup. It's byop and only $300 for a team with no pro or D1 players on the team. Max is 10 bps. Would be interesting to have a team with just classic mags.

[going_home]

http://customcockers.com/forum/showt...664#post323664


Shot right across the bow Beemer...........



#4










Could this be the cocker vs mag wars rekindling ?

Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

Appears someone over there has a level head.

[rifleman wi]

I could see a 5 man with egomags. I say we put together a team. even if we dont win we'd make a statement

+1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?

[Tempted]

I'm a regular over at MCB and I see on a weekly basis "New to Mags" thread. I always see in the BST mags for sale. Do I feel that AGD could make a comeback? Well that is the million dollar question! I feel with the right marketing and products, AGD could. Gotta a mag? Got some oil? Good to go.
This is attainable and no so far fetched...think about it!!!

I know I'm a newby here but those are reasons why AGD has lost some business, not a way to get some back. Fact of the matter is the more used Mags there are on the market, the less new Mags will be sold.

One huge reason there has been less new AGD traffic is because of how darn well built their products are. Tippmann make more on their crappy detents that break and blow out the barrel than AGD does on all of their wear items combined. When something never breaks you never have to buy parts to fix it. And because there is so little to go wrong, you're almost never taking a risk in buying a used one so why would you want to pay more for a new one?

When someone says "I'm having problems with my Mag" the answers are always "Put oil in it", "Go to the hardware store and buy some 10 cent O rings" or "replace your spring and sear(which are probably the only things most Mag owners ever buy from AGD)".

Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business. And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.

Sorry about that drawn out response, its the businessman side of me barking.

[BTAutoMag]

+1 but the question is, are there any fields left in SE Wisconsin that are worth a damn?

I

LOVE

MY

FIELD

.
.
.


stupid head

[Ando]

Looks like the post belittling one of our fearless mods was deleted.

Appears someone over there has a level head.

Thank GOD they don't have a Beemer over there or their server would probably have blown up by now too...lol. Grown men acting like children and leaving cause they didn't get their way. Pfft.

Give it up to Listessa (Mod on CC). Her and I been BS'in back and forth, she's alright in my book.

Beemer and I owes her a beer

[GoatBoy]

Now if AGD brought the Sydarm back there would be some new business.

The return of the Sydarm would probably be more than a decade late, overpriced, and underperforming in light of today's market.

And if they brought the Classic valved Mags back at a low price point, they would pick up pretty much all the Tippmann 98 and BT business. They would probably even pick up a lot of fleet accounts in fields that are replacing old rentals. I know that if I could buy 100 classic valve Automags for the same price as 150 Tippmann 98 Customs then my field would be renting Mags.

AGD has never seemed to care for the customer base at the lower price points. Cost reductions in the design seem to be rare. They happen, but they're rare.

So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.

[Tempted]

If they were able to offer another X valve exchange program, reseal the exchanged valves, package them in a low end body and turn them around for $75 a piece they would stay extremely busy.

Heck that would be a good business to be in for anyone, not just AGD. How many of us would gladly mail in our Classic valves and 100 bucks for an X valve? The exchanger gets the 100 bucks plus another 75 or so when they turn the Classic back around.

Best yet, imagine taking those returned Classic valves and packaging them in stock, open and unlimited class pump packages.

[TOTShadowCompany]

So things have languished, just like this forum's hosting -- on a priced-to-fail basis. Let's face it, $500 for an RTP/Tac One is a really uncomfortable price point to be at right now.

The base mag engine is fine, but everything else in the mag ecosystem deserves a fresh look with an eye for increased functionality, decreased cost, and decreased weight.

I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.

[GoatBoy]

If they were able to offer another X valve exchange program, reseal the exchanged valves, package them in a low end body and turn them around for $75 a piece they would stay extremely busy.

Heck that would be a good business to be in for anyone, not just AGD. How many of us would gladly mail in our Classic valves and 100 bucks for an X valve? The exchanger gets the 100 bucks plus another 75 or so when they turn the Classic back around.

Best yet, imagine taking those returned Classic valves and packaging them in stock, open and unlimited class pump packages.

For starters, the X-valve trade in program was classic valve + $225, not $100. In fact, your math is currently hurting me so I'm going to stop here.

I think I asked a long time ago what AGD did with the classic valve trade ins (after having some remorse). I think they were turned to slag or something. Kind of a shame.

I did trade my minimag valve in for an X-valve. And I regret it. I kept the X but soon bought some more classic valves again. Classic valve works just fine for me; a little on the heavy side, but that's fixable.

I do think that a limited paint market is starting to open up. It doesn't necessarily have to be a pump.

I would spend $500 on a mag over any $1,000 to $1,500 speedball marker out there. $500 price point is a good market to be in. Make a ULE mag with some sort of eletronic trigger frame and bam. Winner winner. Ok maybe $599 with the new trigger frame.

I'm sure you would.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Not all guns that AGD is competing with are speedball guns, and not all guns, speedball or not, cost $1000-$1500. So it's false in two different ways. Nice.

Here is a painful sample list of the markers that a $500 mechanical RTP/Tac One is in the neighborhood of:

• BT TM-15
• BT TM-7
• Tippmann Crossover
• Tippmann Phenom X7
• Empire Axe
• Invert Mini
• Planet Eclipse Etha
• Planet Eclipse Etek 3
• Dangerous Power Fusion X
• Proto Reflex Rail
• MacDev Drone
• ... and many more!

The electro option is a sticky subject; in the meantime, there are other things to look at.

The product is currently just priced to fail.


I love my automags, but refusing to look at this from the perspective of a new (or even experienced) player and understanding the range of choices he has is *not* going to help.

[Tempted]

Yeah I'm familiar with what the X valve exchange program cost. But looking through the entire valve there isn't more than $20 worth of material cost, they can be sold at $100 and turn a profit. After you consider that you'll have about 2 bucks in soft parts to rebuild the Classic valve there is money to be made there as well.

When companies are failing/dying they need to understand that maintaining their current practices are what led to the collapse. AGD's only true fault is the price they demand. They have excellent customer service and some of the most durable products on the market. But a mechanical marker for $500+ isn't going to sell. Lower the price, increase total quantity sold, make more money than selling few markers at high prices while also getting your markers into the hands of many. After you build a large following, start creeping back up in price. Look at the Honda Civic. Back in the late 80s/early 90s they started selling them for almost nothing but still offering a dead reliable vehicle. Fast forward to today and you can spend $35 grand on one because of its reputation and consumer demand.

[Lohman446]

AGD's business model was never supposed to be about fighting with WGP, WDP, SP, etc for a larger piece of the pie. Nor was it supposed to be a race to the bottom in price.

TK and Bud Orr reasoned that cooperative efforts between the manufacturers could grow paintball. As the size of the pie increased the amount for each seller would increase and allow room for the growth of the industry as a whole. Think of it as a "nirvana" of business. Yes there is some competition between manufacturers but they are all working together as well to grow the overall market base.

SP's antics made it very clear that the business model was done. Simply building and demonstrating a superior product was not the name of the game any longer - it was about marketting and hype. When that did not work the industry could fall back to fighting over overly broad patents - waisting potential profits in the court

Some people simply do not want to fight those kinds of battles. Look at who has exited paintball and the innovations they brought. If not for Ben Tippman and the pin valve we would not have the tanks we have today. If not for TK and HPA in paintball we would not have the markers we have today. If not for WDP and PneuVentures we would not have the electronic markers of today. The great companies that brought innovation to paintball and SHARED it (at least to some degree) have been drug down by the companies who do not innovate but rely on marketing and hype. Knowing how TK has done things in the past is it any surprise that he does not want to play that game?

Is there money in paintball? Sure there is. But where is it? Its for the companies that are willing to build a product not intended to last and market it heavily. I still remember reading my first Automag manual that talked about the investment in the marker and how it would last for years to come.... The game that would have to be played to make money in paintball today does not look interesting to me nor does it look to be a game that AGD has played in the past.

[GoatBoy]

[Lohman446]

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.