Since the clock is running...

[wixxxman]

A little of topic/well maybe not

We are talking about pricing of agd products? And how to attract new members and tell the new generation about agd?LETS HIT THE DRAWING BOARD!!!!! We live in 2012 we landed on mars again.I love the x valve,but we need a new valve. A More efficient valve .so we can use smalller tanks and posably change where the air enters the valve.agd is amazing but a crazy air hog,we have every thing except air efficient valve.I know I will buy one

[GoatBoy]

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

[luke]

It's pretty clear to me what he's saying...

[Tempted]

The goat guy seems to be on a mission.

[Tempted]

I think some of you confuse material costs with costs to produce and bring to market as well as value of IP.

I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.

[Shane-O-Mac]

I'm very aware. And at $100 you can make money on the valves after material and overhead.

Whoa, where you getting those numbers from?

I dont know if you have dealt with manufacturing a product and selling it, but you are WAY off base, unless your "Profit" is like 1$. To get a price low enough to make a decent profit off, you first have to order at least 1000 or so, then factor in insurance to cover any person who sues you for getting hurt by your product, then your time is NOT free. Also dont forget all the little items you have to have made, and bought, O-rings, on-off pins, reg pistons, etc. Remember that to compete price wise with the other companies, you have the issue of labor, most others are getting stuff made in China or somehwere other than USA where labor costs is so much lower than here, and then you have to ship the product here, with less quality also. No price out a quality USA made gun and what it would cost, and you cannot compete with the other companies on price, no matter how much better your product is. AGD is a niche market for people who dont mind spending more for a higher quality gun.

[BTAutoMag]

[Lohman446]

My point is this. A company making money looks incredibly easy from the outside looking in. Actually doing it is an entirely different story. My suggestion is BEFORE you put up a lot of capital on something that looks so simple that you fully consider it and talk to people in the industry or with business experience. When I see people explaining to me how much profit is available in something and then list only material costs it makes me wonder who they intend to hire to do it, manage it, handle payroll issues, proper business licenses, insurance (there is a big list, you get the point).

I don't care what you guys do with your money. My suggestion is before you start dumping money into it that you have an operational plan and have actually considered a working business budget.

My point is that it is a massive error to confuse cost of materials with cost of production and distribution.

[Rudz]

I've been here for over 7 years and have quite a few posts. Some of you know me, some of you don't. At our peak in about 06/07 AO Socal alone had 60+ people coming out regularly. Times have changed, a lot of us are broke, and can't afford to play. Some of us still play, but not with mags.

I promise that there will always be a mag in my stable (because I spent so much money on a couple of them, I'd be stupid to sell em).

I don't have money to "save AO" but if she dies, I still have my memories, my friends and Tunaball, where we meet every year for the last 6 years and I've made some of my best friends off this forum, I know these guys by there first and last names and there wives and kids, were brothers because of this forum and for that I thank you TK. I do not want to see our forum die, but she has withered away for years now and it makes me sad.

I do wonder sometimes what she would look like updated with new software, avatars, a chatroom and signatures and all. Would people come back? Thinking the other day, I believe me and my friends are now part of the old guard, I see new posters and no longer know who they are, I see the same thread topics you see every couple months and remember when I made those threads myself.

There was a time I didn't even know how to change the velocity on my frst mag, a karta tunamax emag, and forget about tuning a lvl x, lol. Now I'm a "mag guy" I can fix the damn things just by staring at them long enough.

This isn't my goodbye, because everytime I wear my AGD shirt, sweater, hat, jersey or end up on Creamridge, NJ next year, the AO spirit will be alive and well

[Tempted]

I haven't been into Mags very long, but I have been into paintball a while. The reason it took so long to get into Mags is because of two reasons:

The cheap Mags cost more than what mid range electros run. They have slow cycling, 100lb trigger pull, are as efficient as Grave Digger and have barrels that are unique to them only.

The Mags that compete with mid range electros($200+/- used) are $500+.


There is no incentive for new players to buy them. Now that I'm a little older and enjoy classic markers, I love them. They are bullet proof and are overall just cool. But most Mag owners are just that, older and play with them for the nostalgia and cool factor. Once we get a few we don't need to buy anymore. And seeing as how it makes no sense to buy a new ULE Custom for $700 when you can get used ones for $300, why would you buy a new one? Brand loyalty?

This company will die if it can't pull in new customers. It won't pull in new customers with its current business plan. Where it gets interesting is when it does die. Then you will have some guys who are smaller part producers becoming the only sources for Mag parts. They will grow, their quantity will go up, their product range will evolve and we might get competitive parts for the right prices. Then Mags may come into demand, but AGD won't be here producing new markers. All older Mags will be sought after and once they're gone, they're gone.

[Flatliner333]

I don't believe the current discussions were about saving AGD the company ,we have no control over that. Save this forum.

[Lohman446]

I haven't been into Mags very long, but I have been into paintball a while. The reason it took so long to get into Mags is because of two reasons:

The cheap Mags cost more than what mid range electros run. They have slow cycling, 100lb trigger pull, are as efficient as Grave Digger and have barrels that are unique to them only.

The Mags that compete with mid range electros($200+/- used) are $500+.


There is no incentive for new players to buy them. Now that I'm a little older and enjoy classic markers, I love them. They are bullet proof and are overall just cool. But most Mag owners are just that, older and play with them for the nostalgia and cool factor. Once we get a few we don't need to buy anymore. And seeing as how it makes no sense to buy a new ULE Custom for $700 when you can get used ones for $300, why would you buy a new one? Brand loyalty?

This company will die if it can't pull in new customers. It won't pull in new customers with its current business plan. Where it gets interesting is when it does die. Then you will have some guys who are smaller part producers becoming the only sources for Mag parts. They will grow, their quantity will go up, their product range will evolve and we might get competitive parts for the right prices. Then Mags may come into demand, but AGD won't be here producing new markers. All older Mags will be sought after and once they're gone, they're gone.

PPS still exists. You can operate within a niche market and survive.

Would it be nice if we could go buy new mags for $100? Sure, I guess. However one has to question if it is within the realm of reasonable expectations given the current intellectual property, materials, tolerances, and other factors that influence price. There is a reason that modern markers are going to the set-ups they have now. With exception of the computer control system tolerances can be fairly large compared to a mag and still work out of the box.

Wanting something and being able to build a sustainable business model to get there are different things. PPS and any number of niche companies have shown that it is possible to manage with smaller market share. The marker you could build to compete with current markers on the low end would look a lot like the markers you are trying to compete with, not the mag you love. Now if we are talking a $1500 ultra-high end mech and TK is willing to produce a gun with some of the features he hinted towards years ago we are in a different game (and yes, I still lay claim to the first one, I offered to put a deposit on it years ago).

As is pointed out above me there is a difference between saving AGD and saving AO. I have already put in my contribution to AO. Luke is going above and beyond. Others have as well obviously. Saving AO is about imminent financial issues not about rebuilding AGD. Rudz is right though. AO will live on one way or another in the end.

[Tempted]

Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.

[Lohman446]

Without new customers, AGD will fall. When that happens, all sites and forums will also eventually fall. To save AO you have to rely on AGD.

Why? There are a lot of forums that are user supported or supported through themselves (advertising) without being directly tied to a manufacturer. Once upon a time AO was independent.

[BTAutoMag]

im on another site about dodge neons... they dont make those anymore and the site is GROWING. you dont need a successful product to have a successful forum