any chance of new mags from AGD anytime?

[GoatBoy]

How many units do you believe you would have to make (and sell) to reach the price point you have in mind?

I don't have a breakout of how much each bit costs, but the big items would be 3 pims, effectively two ~0.750" holes and that spring carrier/washer (hadn't thought of baking in, but it makes sense now) in the middle of the stainless body.

And the accompanying plastic bits which of course I can take care of.




On the original topic of this thread, yes, nothing is coming forth from AGD.

[blackdeath1k]

AGD is a shoebox of parts in roman's garage. literally.

That is the sad thing I hate to hear. But sadly I bet it is correct.

[OPBN]

We have a ULE Classic valve that's made out of a lighter material, it's called an X valve. Using the Corvette analogy again, asking to start making Classics again is like asking GM to start producing C5's again. Just because they are an older design doesn't make them less expensive to produce. The problem is, we see Classic valves out there used for $45-60 and think that this is all they went for when new. Pretty sure they were considerably higher than what they are selling for now. Much like used Corvettes sell for considerably less than new ones. And then when a new generation comes out, they drop even more.

And Luke does the mod on Classics so they will accept a ULT.

Only so much you can really do with ULE bodies. I also feel this is something for the aftermarket.

Maybe TOTShadow or someone can get an AGD clamping feedneck order together. AKA or CCM make nice feednecks, maybe a batch can be ordered without logos or maybe CCM would run a small batch or AO or AGD ones? Seems like a pretty simple request. I'm not interested in one, as I order all mine without lazering, but to each his own.

I think Rainman will start making pumps again and I have heard rumblings of another person possibly making some. With that said, everyone that makes pump kits excluding XM15 says they are slow movers. I do think howeever, if someone came out again with a sub $80 pump kit that they would sell. Irony of pumps being on fire nowadays and no one producing kits. I'm sure as soon as the pump fad dies 3 different people will come out with something.

[cockerpunk]

IIT: people who have no idea what they are talking about.

there is not going to be another automag from AGD ... get over it.

AGD is a shoebox of parts in roman's garage. literally.

[Nobody]

Hey I did not look for much criticism or an argument stand point but oh well. Just stating my personal opinions, I even said none of these would ever happen. Oh well here I go.

i was looking for a good, solid, frank discussion. if you want an e-arguement, or a flame war, let's go over to MCB and say that the only thing that brass is good for is to make musical instruments so you can play something at the bonfire of the burning KP stocks. this is to maybe work out what people want, what people are looking for, and to see if through this discussion, that maybe we can spark some interest in something new.

1). I dont mean to come off of as offensive but this is really a flat out stupid question. How about I triple the thickness of everything in your marker with the same performance and throw a few 20lb weights on your marker and throw somebody of an equivalent skill with the same marker that was standard with no added on weight but same performance and see the difference. Or an even better example is whether you would want your shoes to weigh 10 pounds each or under 1lb each with the same durability? I am not looking to degrade the durability in the classic. It could just be made lighter with some different materials which could actually be better to produce since SS is tough on machinery.

never any stupid questions, just stupid people asking stupid questions(but that is not directed at you). to me, the classic is fine valve but dead as a platform. plus, there are tons of classic valves out there so that you don't need something new. though i agree that the classic could go on a diet, even just finding someone to reliably cut the weight off, would be a god send. now for the trigger, that's simple, leverage of a 2 finger trigger frame. but then you have the people that don't like a 2 finger trigger and we are back to step 1. so in that i can see where you are coming from.

2). Lets see, the price range might jut be a tad bit different dont ya think? Also not all X-valves use the ULT you know. You cant RT and get 20-30+ on a classic can you? Plenty of the X-valve is different in terms of how it compares to the classic, there are two different parts kits for a reason. Also with the classic's trigger pull being hard as a rock and me having a minimag pistol it would be nice to have a smoother trigger pull. Not looking to walk it or anything.

granted, i have limited experience with the X type valve. i don't know about the limited use of the ULT in all the valves. i have the experience with the classic but near nothing with X or Retro or Emag or any of the newer valves. now for your minimag pistol, i would think that a pneumatic trigger(but not one that RTs) would make it easier for you. but in all honesty, i can't remember what a single trigger felt like with a classic. i never had a problem, but i is one, me.

3). EX. Lets say you have the choice between 2 cars that are both hybrids, they can both run off of electricity only for 40 miles each. You travel that at most everyday when you go to work and by days end you need to recharge. But one of the cars only gets 22 miles to the gallon and has a tank that holds 15 gallons. And the other car gets 68 mpg with a tank that also holds 15 gallons. Which would you rather have? Maybe one night you forgot to charge the car and you had a big trip to go on and you had no way to pay for gas. I can get unlimited air fills for a whole year at both my shop and local field for only $10 a year per tank. But I would sure as hell want a more efficient marker if given the option. like in the example, what if I dont have time or I forget to go get a fill and a important game is about to take place? Also if it is efficient enough you could potentially use a smaller tank which would weigh less and you therefore have more "ease of use" and you are faster and less fatigued throughout each game.

in terms of efficiency, would it be worth it? the bottle size to me is insignificant, i use 68/4500 almost all the time, with just a 45/45 for a couple things. i can see this argument, but how do we improve it? if you lighten the rest of the gun, then the bottle weight/size doesn't matter. if you improve just the efficiency then you can shorten the gun. its apple and oranges to me. this is one thing that i don't have an answer on.

4). No I would not be able to buy one tomorrow. So that is why you pre-order it. You are given a "heads up" or a deadline. If by the deadline you do not have all money turned for the X amount of orders then you will have to wait by the next deadline where the other people need to pay off their money. Not that hard to comprehend. I said pre-order not permanently put back into production.

we all know that pre-orders are like. we get all the good intentions, people step up, people pay and if there are problems then that's when the poop hits the fan. even if something came from AGD, they not only need a bigger pre-order number to make it happen, they would need a great number of pre-sold even to get it started. higher numbers will get the costs down, but it would mean that you would have to sell more. having the money put into an escrow account would help with people backing out, but its the starting that is the hardest. i like the Z frame, but i'm not ready to think about buying one. but even a limited run would be nice to see. and as much as i could naysay, i hope this is more of a Devil's advocate and help get things off the ground, by putting a fire in someone's belly and proving me wrong.

so this is what i would like to see in a new gun.

1) different or improved rail. chopping out the excess metal and giving it a better look. would love to see the entire line of Emag, classic and RTPro
2) a updated ULE body, or even a couple bodies. just a different look, something new instead of the same old body that was made 10 years ago
3) stock clamping feedneck that says AGD
4) pump kit, but that is a pipe dream that will never happen

that's it. i'm not looking for a new gun, just some support for what they already have and will sell more easily.

[Freedy500]

1) why? what advantage could you have with a ULE classic? the reason its SS, is because it was supposed to last a life time.

2) by turning a classic to fit a ULT, it makes it a X valve, so what's the point of the X valve other than weighing less than the classic. so what is the advantage, what is the reason to do it?

3) this is a weird one. when i put my L10 in my Mag my efficiency went up. don't know what i did, but i can get 1200+ shots off a 68/4500. but, with the no cost air options, do you need more efficiency? i generally carry only as much paint as i can off a full fill. i don't need to worry about efficiency. though for someone wanting to run a tourney with a mag, this could be something, but what about people shooting shockers(SFT & NXT), or other spool type valves that aren't getting a case off a 68/4500? the efficiency game is a non factor to me.

4) even though people want them, the Y and Z frames weren't huge sellers. even though they are desired, if tomorrow they were made available, could you buy one? that's the thing. look at all the pre-orders and the people who want these kinds of products, but when people put in the time and money to make them, the orders fall flat and no one comes up with the cash and people get angry when these things fall through.

Hey I did not look for much criticism or an argument stand point but oh well. Just stating my personal opinions, I even said none of these would ever happen. Oh well here I go.

1). I dont mean to come off of as offensive but this is really a flat out stupid question. How about I triple the thickness of everything in your marker with the same performance and throw a few 20lb weights on your marker and throw somebody of an equivalent skill with the same marker that was standard with no added on weight but same performance and see the difference. Or an even better example is whether you would want your shoes to weigh 10 pounds each or under 1lb each with the same durability? I am not looking to degrade the durability in the classic. It could just be made lighter with some different materials which could actually be better to produce since SS is tough on machinery.

2). Lets see, the price range might jut be a tad bit different dont ya think? Also not all X-valves use the ULT you know. You cant RT and get 20-30+ on a classic can you? Plenty of the X-valve is different in terms of how it compares to the classic, there are two different parts kits for a reason. Also with the classic's trigger pull being hard as a rock and me having a minimag pistol it would be nice to have a smoother trigger pull. Not looking to walk it or anything.

3). EX. Lets say you have the choice between 2 cars that are both hybrids, they can both run off of electricity only for 40 miles each. You travel that at most everyday when you go to work and by days end you need to recharge. But one of the cars only gets 22 miles to the gallon and has a tank that holds 15 gallons. And the other car gets 68 mpg with a tank that also holds 15 gallons. Which would you rather have? Maybe one night you forgot to charge the car and you had a big trip to go on and you had no way to pay for gas. I can get unlimited air fills for a whole year at both my shop and local field for only $10 a year per tank. But I would sure as hell want a more efficient marker if given the option. like in the example, what if I dont have time or I forget to go get a fill and a important game is about to take place? Also if it is efficient enough you could potentially use a smaller tank which would weigh less and you therefore have more "ease of use" and you are faster and less fatigued throughout each game.

4). No I would not be able to buy one tomorrow. So that is why you pre-order it. You are given a "heads up" or a deadline. If by the deadline you do not have all money turned for the X amount of orders then you will have to wait by the next deadline where the other people need to pay off their money. Not that hard to comprehend. I said pre-order not permanently put back into production.

[blackdeath1k]

I'm betting production expense wise a classic valve doesn't cost much less if any to produce than an rt platform valve. So why start making the lower capability valve again? That is pointless capitol expense waste on a company. Now if it could be produced at half the price. And an rt platform valve couldn't. Then there just might be a market for that. Since you could now have a cheaper entry level gun.

Efficiency? Only time I could see this being a real issue could be in a big game. Other than that. What's the issue? Most Fields are free air with the admission to play. Get air before each game. Or after a couple games. Heck. If you don't have a lead finger you may get through a day on a 68 4500 tank. I normally get through a day on a single fill. And I've never had more than 3300psi in my tank due to the area I live.

Rich players? I've got 2 mags. A classic rt set bone stock other than the I frame. I fell in love with these guns when they came out and can't even bring myself to remove the sight rail because I like its look. Wife now has a used classic minimag with I frame. Nothing special. At some point I would love to have a fancy mag body. But other toys of mine earn the money over having many guns. We all spend money on toys. Some have a lot of paintball guns. Some have one horribly expensive gun. Me. I have and expensive customs sport bike. To mouth off about the people with the expensive guns being rich? No. Paintball guns are just there hobby that gets the money.

As for AGD. I just want them to stay in business for years to come. And that can only happen as long as there is profit coming in the doors. Since there 500 dollar new gun in mech form can compete with all the fancy electros. And without batteries. And having great reliability. With many options for flashy upgrades or one off customs designs. To me. It seams that publicity and marketing is really all the company needs to stay strong and stable. I don't expect them to ever be where they were in the market in the mid 90s. But I want to know that they are stable. This is the one last original pb company.

[Nobody]

I dont see much more to ask from AGD. IMO they already have the best markers on the planet, but there a few improvements/add ons I would love to have (but dont see happening).

1. Would be a ULE sorta classic valve, one that weighs a lot less, those things are heavy.

2. Make all classic valves have the option or ability to run off of a ULT everytime would be great for my minimag pistol.

3. An AGD produced efficiency upgrade. This seems to be the only weak spot for most AGD markers. I know hills mod did plenty but I want to see one designed and built by AGD, one that will not effect an RT's ability and either comes stock in new markers/valves or is a drop in for both valve types.

4. Would be great if they put out an AO statement that they could get a thing going where they will need an X amount of pre-orders to do a run of their older yet desired products such as the Z or Y grips.

But besides all that I want nothing more from AGD but for them to keep their doors open.

1) why? what advantage could you have with a ULE classic? the reason its SS, is because it was supposed to last a life time.

2) by turning a classic to fit a ULT, it makes it a X valve, so what's the point of the X valve other than weighing less than the classic. so what is the advantage, what is the reason to do it?

3) this is a weird one. when i put my L10 in my Mag my efficiency went up. don't know what i did, but i can get 1200+ shots off a 68/4500. but, with the no cost air options, do you need more efficiency? i generally carry only as much paint as i can off a full fill. i don't need to worry about efficiency. though for someone wanting to run a tourney with a mag, this could be something, but what about people shooting shockers(SFT & NXT), or other spool type valves that aren't getting a case off a 68/4500? the efficiency game is a non factor to me.

4) even though people want them, the Y and Z frames weren't huge sellers. even though they are desired, if tomorrow they were made available, could you buy one? that's the thing. look at all the pre-orders and the people who want these kinds of products, but when people put in the time and money to make them, the orders fall flat and no one comes up with the cash and people get angry when these things fall through.

[Nobody]

well explain it, cause what you're saying isn't making it.

what then would you like to see as a lower priced mag option? classic valve, steel body and a CF frame? well, you can buy them used and though AGD doesn't receive that money, you can get them. building a gun is better, more fun than just buying one with all the options. it comes into the personal aspect. this was the big thing with cockers back in the day where you can build a gun without even touching a WGP part. sure, AGD is a little late to that party, its here none the less. plus the people who do EgoMag and Pneumag have made a new option that none of the other guns can touch.

You.just.don't.get.it.

You don't want an old body because it doesn't have modern features (like the cocker threads you mention), and yet you have to ask me what modern features I'm talking about?

THEN EXPLAIN IT. you keep saying you just don't get it, bit have yet to explain what you are wanting.

again explain why or how a steel body is better than our modern option?

you asked what you can change and i listed. you say you don't care for esthetics but have not even bothered to say what you like. the rail, that's your problem right there. you can have 3 options: cheap, quality(light weight) and availability. choose 2. i bought a praxis rail for my Emag build and it cost me $85. happy to pay it, cause when i had my first Emag, i didn't like the weight, so this time i'll try to shed weight where i can.

when dealing with stainless it a bear to machine and that adds to the cost. aluminium is the better option as it weighs less, is easier to machine and its the only option for an Xvalve. why would you want to go backwards in material? if anything, you would want a lighter but stronger material, like a titanium or similar metal but the costs for the raw material and the machining time makes it cost ineffective. aluminium is fairly cheap but strong, hence its use. simple as that.

Lucy, care to s'plain this? i'm in the same boat. i hate to see that it would cost $400+ for a Chord body, but that's what the market is. either you like it, hope to find a great deal on a new body or go with the cheaper ULE.


wow, i ask you to show me your option and yet you decide that its not for me. i asked cause i want to see what you are talking about. if its not for me then let me decide. you aren't me and don't know what i like. you may think i have something special on my Mag but i don't. its plain jane, but its my anvil. anvils are pretty, they just work and that's what my mag does.

I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't make sense to make anything at all.

I'm not in this for the money. That's probably what makes me doubly-troublesome to most of you and wrecks most of your "logic". I don't need advertising or shelf space or whatever nonsense you guys come up with. I'd like to get mags in people's hands.

well, no pics, so i have no idea what your talking about. i would like to see this body cause i want to understand what you are about.

now, i can actually agree with you about getting more mags in people's hands.

What's your interest in this?

Oh, that's right, preserving the value of your current belongings.

i want to see it, cause you've talked about this and i want to see what this is about. its called understanding, its called learning. i only have 2 mags(one complete and one i'm building), no huge collection(i have collections of different guns, mainly ICD). my classic is my mud gun and my Emag is something i want to be happy with. that's it. nothing special, no EuroX mags, no SFLs, no Shatner signed guns, no Hello Kitty stuff. just 2 plain mags. so there isn't much value to preserve.

i'd assume that the ring is a pressfit. set it on a dowel and press the body on it. sometimes it can be that simple, but its been a while since i looked at a stainless body

[dodge3500]

Ooh I know,I would just like AGD to be back on the shelves.I hate seeing soo many of the old names all but gone or disappearing.

[Freedy500]

I dont see much more to ask from AGD. IMO they already have the best markers on the planet, but there a few improvements/add ons I would love to have (but dont see happening).

1. Would be a ULE sorta classic valve, one that weighs a lot less, those things are heavy.

2. Make all classic valves have the option or ability to run off of a ULT everytime would be great for my minimag pistol.

3. An AGD produced efficiency upgrade. This seems to be the only weak spot for most AGD markers. I know hills mod did plenty but I want to see one designed and built by AGD, one that will not effect an RT's ability and either comes stock in new markers/valves or is a drop in for both valve types.

4. Would be great if they put out an AO statement that they could get a thing going where they will need an X amount of pre-orders to do a run of their older yet desired products such as the Z or Y grips.

But besides all that I want nothing more from AGD but for them to keep their doors open.

[knownothingmags]

I'm all for a new mag.I would be glad to pay 650 to 750ish for one that has some color to it and double detents, clamping feed neck,colored matching x-valve and a little touch to the curves of it.the classic 68 with clamping vertical feed neck and autococker threaded barrel with no x-valve for let's say 325 to 350ish as far as the more inexpensive one.oooh and keep it all interchangeable like they are now.yeah I know,wishful thinking:-) :-)

all that is already available. just keep looking, and talk to an anodizer.

[dodge3500]

I'm all for a new mag.I would be glad to pay 650 to 750ish for one that has some color to it and double detents, clamping feed neck,colored matching x-valve and a little touch to the curves of it.the classic 68 with clamping vertical feed neck and autococker threaded barrel with no x-valve for let's say 325 to 350ish as far as the more inexpensive one.oooh and keep it all interchangeable like they are now.yeah I know,wishful thinking:-) :-)

[OPBN]

I think the problem is that you think a magic wand can be waved and suddenly a $200 Automag will be possible. As mentioned I would venture a guess that even in larger quantities you would be hard pressed to make cheap valve be it Classic or X. Compare the milling of two, it not really that much different. I would also guess that due to its hardness that SS is actually more costly to mill as it takes a considerably higher toll on tooling which wear out quicker. Could be wrong, maybe a machinist can weigh in on this?

And I'm sorry if you can't afford some of the higher end parts, but that's what used parts are for. And it pretty much negates your argument that there isn't a lower priced choice. AGD doesn't make crap, for me, its part of the appeal. It sounds like sour grapes on your part that you can't afford some of the more costly components. And honestly there are several things out right now that I would love to be able to afford, but can't. It sucks but it is what it is. Do I think that because I can't afford expensive parts right now that they should not be made and instead the people putting out parts should concentrate on cheaper items? Absolutely not! I just wait and hope when things get better financially I can find some used ones that someone wants to let go. It's kind of how things work. And I think that's what YOU aren't getting. Automags aren't low end end markers and we don't want them to be.

[GoatBoy]

then what are you asking? what do you consider a modern Automag? what is your criteria for it? classics are running cheap at $100, but if you are looking for UMF type frames for the same price as a Intelliframe, then you're delusional. its the same with X valves. you might find them cheap for $150, but that's only cause people want to move them quick. i'm happy that they are keeping value. so many things loose value quick in paintball. spend $1200ish on a BRAND new gun and 6 months later you might get half that price, if people want the gun.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

Coming out with a lower priced classic automag shouldn’t lower the value of the premium stuff you already have. There will always be guys off in make-believe Ferrari land who have to buy that stuff. So your “investment” is safe. As the saying goes, if mags have a tendency to breed, then it would seem that you want to try to lower the barrier to entry and let the rabbits go to work.

None of this affects you. You’re clearly an educated, high-income earner that rolls around town in his Ferrari, so I fail to see why any of this would concern you.

Crying about the value of your stuff to the exclusion of others who just want reasonably priced options is indicative of a deeper character trait. Doubly so when it doesn't affect you in the first place.

you mentioned that you don't like the looks of any of the aftermarket bodies, and i posed a question? you like the old steel bodies, but you are in the minority. other than a nostalgia look, i wouldn't want an old body.

You.just.don't.get.it.

You don't want an old body because it doesn't have modern features (like the cocker threads you mention), and yet you have to ask me what modern features I'm talking about?

being able to carry one barrel threading is a godsend to people that have multiple guns. cocker threading even though it sucks, everyone knows it sucks, is the standard. so moving to a better body IS an everyday move, it made life easier for all. especially when combined with a lever lock feedneck, AS WELL as getting the hopper closer to the body so that you bring down the center of gravity. sorry, i don't know what you are complaining about.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

I used cocker threaded barrels in my classic mag body. That's what I carry.

the rail you have options to get a better look, but because of design, there is only so much you can do. the same with the reg back. i don't see and won't see anyone coming out with a different reg, other than people snatching up old Air America tank regs and swapping them on to it. plus, the reg back is only esthetics since there has not been any change to the reg. so you complain about the looks, then site something you can't really change. what are you asking?

You.just.don’t.get.it.

Nowhere did I say the rail needed a “better look”. Why are you so stuck on aesthetics? I say, “I don’t care for aesthetics”, then you come back and tell me, “Well there’s not much you can do about the looks.” Are you even reading any of this? How about just an inexpensive, lightweight rail?

Switching backs on the reg doesn't change the functionality, and doesn't improve the looks, but it definitely makes it lighter. There's also the question of whether or not an aluminum back is more cost effective than a solid stainless steel one.

personally, i think you only beat the drum for the old bodies cause you hate the prices of what is out there. its hard to pony up 5 Benjamins for a Dallara or whatever else and it sucks. oh well, that's the market. just because you can't afford it, doesn't mean that everyone has to play on your level.

You.just.don’t.get.it.

This discussion we’re having is not real. It’s in Ferrari-land. In your mind, you drive a Ferrari. In the real world, people look at the prices for these mag bodies, frames, and rails and literally go, “WTF?!” Real world.

so show a pic of your body. you've talked about it enough.

It’s not anything you’d be interested in. No aesthetics, and it’s not something that you could show off to people to show that you spent a lot of money on it. So it’s not for you.

personally, if people like what you do to the body, i'd be a fool not to make them.

I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't make sense to make anything at all.

if it is good, then you would have a niche in the market that no one is doing.

I'm not in this for the money. That's probably what makes me doubly-troublesome to most of you and wrecks most of your "logic". I don't need advertising or shelf space or whatever nonsense you guys come up with. I'd like to get mags in people's hands.

What's your interest in this?

Oh, that's right, preserving the value of your current belongings.




On a more serious note, to everyone else: how exactly are the innards of the stainless body constructed? The external stuff is pretty easy -- weld a pim on and drill holes/slots. But what about that ring on the inside? How would that be done (cheaply)? I think there are ways to get away with not even doing it, but I’d like to know how it’s done on the original.