Who Thinks That Hopper and Gun Hits Should be Outlawed for all Games?

[HoppysMag]

Hey! I got it! An Idea for a Scenario Game that is not battle related at all. Break this steriotype right up! here is the plan...

We call it "Peoples Park".

Thats right! It will be set in 1960's Berkley California. One team will all dress like hippies and take over a piece of land destined to be a parking lot and liberate it from this evil fate. And smoke dope and sit around having free love and planting flowers. the other team will be the College administration and apose them. Should be safe right?

Oh wait we gotta problem here. The College Administration called in the National Guard and we are going to have a big meeting about this. Lets see what happens...

Anyone of you young kids remember the historical outcome of this peacefull demonstration?

Ya it ended in the unfortunate death of like 3 people right? At Kent State? sorry i am litteraly a "Young Kid" so im taking a swing in the dark.

[cphilip]

OK let me take Walts side then on this part for him. It was not the first game being a War Battle simulation if you think abouti it. They played capture the flag. Now it can be argued that in War you kind of do that in a way. Capture the enimies fort or something and hoist your flag up to show you took it. But they did not play it that way at all. And they have boundries and such not much like a war scenario...but agian...it can be argued. It is not in our best interest to associate it with that as it has evolved into a sport with clear objectives and plays and such. And we already know about Bud Orr and Top Gun winning the court fight to declassify Paintball Makers as not being Fire Arms. They were actually classified as "Fire Arms" in NJ when the first game happened if you didn't know that. So we are not using Fire Arms anymore (if ever) and no one dies now, the are "eliminated" from the game. Although we use the term Die loosly even still. Probably shouldn't. Now one can argue this is all political correctness. Or one could say it is trying to paint another picture and a more acurate one of what Paintball is today. That I think is Walts point. He is saying its not JUST political correctness in this case it's a "more accurate description" of the facts as they now stand. And he see's it as a digression to a place it should not return in the publics perception. And I agree with that.

[cphilip]

HoppysMag, correct and a lot of people tear gassed. They called them all to a meeting in a square. Police and Nat Guard let them in but refused to let them back out. Once they ahd them all in there they gassed them with grenades and Helicopters. I am not sure the death toll. You might be right. I just put that in to break the tension a little. For some reason it came to mind.

[AGDmagman2001]

Yeah, gun/hopper hit should count, I mean 75% + of the time I get hit is in the mask, hopper or gun, same with the people I shoot, because unless you hit them on the run, those are the practically only areas they expose(if their any good). It would be stupid not to make them count IMO. Just encourage blind shooting all the more, and just wouldn't make since.

[Trunnion]

when we play rec ball in the woods, we play straight elimination. one team defends, the other attacks them. the team with players left at the end of the game wins. simple as that. it cannot be said in any way that this is not a war-like situation. it's quite similar to a search and destroy type mission. why do we play this way? quite simply we don't have the man power or the money to set up other methods, like speedball fields and the like. paintball is used in ROTC here at school as a training aid to teach people to work and react as a team, to fight as a unit. yes, the rules are obviously different than if the weapons were real firearms. but the fact of the matter is that paintball is about as close as you can get to a war similation in everyday life. i know most speedballers and tourny players and the like prefer to eliminate this war-like image, but it's just not possible. every person that i currently play with in my town got into paintball the same way i did. we all play speedball now, and it's a fun game, but we all prefer the woods. you can be as politically correct as you want. you can dissociate speedball and tournies from woodsball and scenario games if you wish, try to promote them as entirely different sports. but the war-like image will never go away

[cphilip]

I thought this was a pretty decent article from a paintball site written from a pro paintball point of view. But again its one persons opinion on what it is or isn't and his arguments for his stance...

PAINTBALL ISN'T MOCK WAR, NOR IS IT A METAPHOR FOR WAR
At first glance it may not seem this way because some scenario games revolving around historic battles and campaigns are popular. This is not the industry's or players' way of glorifying war. It is simply playing "make believe." Many of the organizers of these events use the scenario to proclaim the gallantry shown by our fighting men and women. No one who plays paintball would relish going to war. Other than the combat veteran, the paintballer knows how quickly luck can run out when projectiles start flying. If anything, paintball gives players a sense of their own vulnerability and mortality.

PAINTBALL ISN'T BAD FOR KIDS
Provided the safety equipment fits them properly, there is no reason people under the "legal age of consent" shouldn't play paintball - with parental permission, of course. In fact, paintball just may teach kids some important life skills. Winning doesn't matter, race/creed/age/religion/size doesn't matter. Respect for authority, safety, and determined effort brings reward. Best of all, it teaches them to see a loss not as failure, but as a learning experience. TEAMWORK is essential.

PAINTBALL ISN'T DANGEROUS
The safety equipment is designed to withstand multiple impacts from paintballs that are travelling far above the industry safe standard. (In other words they hold up over and above the "worst case scenario" like all safety equipment should.) Few people have been injured playing paintball. Accident statistics show that paintball has fewer injuries than bowling.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TRAINING PEOPLE FOR THE OVERTHROW OF THE GOVERNMENT
We're not a bunch of paramilitary commandos. We are not using paintball to train ourselves in military tactics. In fact, military tactics don't seem to work in paintball. The reason is that military tactics require a highly disciplined group of people, and that's not paintballers. We are a large collection of fierce individualists, and we don't take orders very well.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TRAINING PEOPLE TO KILL, NOR DOES IT MAKE PEOPLE "GET USED TO" SHOOTING SOMEONE
It's only a game. Shooting someone is more representative of a tag. Besides, paintball is the ONLY team sport where you can LEGALLY eliminate your opponent from play. And best of all: no one gets hurt. We don't want to sugar-coat it: some players do refer to eliminations as "kills", but that's just an expression. Paintballers are NOT actually thinking, "I'm killing this guy," when they shoot somebody. They're more likely thinking, "Aha! One step close to that flag!"

PAINTBALL DOESN'T PROMOTE VIOLENT TENDENCIES IN PEOPLE
It is a safe and healthy way to blow-off some of the everyday tensions in life. Most likely players have absolutely no tendencies towards anything after a day of paintball other than tendencies towards a hot bath and a soft bed.

PAINTBALL ISN'T TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO USE FIREARMS
Yes, paintball markers share the same basic features as firearms. Both markers and firearms have triggers, grips, barrels, sears, bolts, hammers, and sights. However people can't learn how to use real firearms by using paintmarkers (no more than you can about a computer by using a pocket calculator).


borrowed from www.f4og.com

[Vex]

HOLD ON!!

Believe it or not, this thread was actually started for AOers to state their opinions on whether gun/hopper hits should count during games. I know what the title of the thread is--I put it there. Now, I'm not trying to ban or outlaw them--I just wanted to know how everyone else feels about them. I've stated my opinons on the subject. I think that the whole "war game" scenario should be dealt with in a different thread. In fact, I'll start one.

cphillip: The standoff that you refer to took place at Kent State University, in Ohio. 4 student protesters were killed by National Guardsmen. I'm not going to get into another whole argument on that topic either. It's been 30 years since that event took place. I've read testimonials from both students and the guardsmen who were there that day, and I can honestly say that I feel bad for those guardsmen. They were put in a very difficult situation and responded violently AFTER they had been attacked and their lives were threatened. So in the words of Forrest Gump, "That's all I got to say about that."

[Eagle]

I agree, no gun hits

[Panzerr]

What, so you want people to be able to just stick their markers above their Sup'Air bunkers and spray without being able to shoot them out? That's rediculous.

[FooTemps]

A hit is a hit... We can't change that. If you don't want hopper hits, take away the hopper.... if you don't want gun hits then take away the gun... see what happens? You don't play!
Places play hopper hits for the sake of fairness whether you agree or not. Cheaters would take advantage of the "no hopper shots" rule... They'd make their hoppers and guns into shields.

[HoppysMag]

you asked our opinion. and your upset it doesnt match yours.

[FooTemps]

huh? Are you talking to me or someone else? That's been my opinion from the start... I just decided to be more blunt about it to get more of a reaction...

[HoppysMag]

no im talkin to phazershifter

[Vex]

HoppysMag

When did I ever state that I was upset that your opinions don't match mine?

Quit trying to psychoanalyze me. If you can grasp the concept of reading and understanding what someone else has written, then this thread would go a lot smoother.

All I've stated that has pissed you off is that I'll argue that someone can not, 100% of the time, with complete accuracy, aim for and hit hoppers and guns every single game. You've obviously taken offense to this statement, and I don't know why.

FooTemps:
Who can hide behind their gun or hopper and use it as a shield? If that were the case, then why not outlaw bunkers? You wouldn't need them if you were allowed to hide behind your marker and your hopper.

[bofh]

Originally posted by cphilip
HoppysMag, correct and a lot of people tear gassed. They called them all to a meeting in a square. Police and Nat Guard let them in but refused to let them back out. Once they ahd them all in there they gassed them with grenades and Helicopters. I am not sure the death toll. You might be right. I just put that in to break the tension a little. For some reason it came to mind.

For the benefit of everyone, I'll explain what "People's Park" is. It's a ratty little square of sand and trees, by Telegraph Street. In 1969, unreleted to Vietnam, the University of California, in Berkely, wanted to build a parking lot on the lot. Hippies (a word reserved for people who weren't aligned with the University at the time), protested the eviction of the homeless which lived there. The National Guard was called in, and 128 protesters were wounded and one bystander was shot dead.

Cphillip was not using the Kent State riot as example. Which was Vietnam related. And left Four protesters shot dead. (sing it with me...."Four dead in O-HI-O")

More recently, People's Park had another riot, in 1991. Over the building of volleyball courts. The were torn down in 1996. More info, and nice pictures here http://www.peoplespark.org/