Billboard Contest Discussion Thread

[The Frymarker]

Oh get out of here fatman!!! I have had 2 kids you think, I want to put my bod up there!

What are you nutz! Face is fine. So you want to buy some grips now huh?


Actually my take on the whole billboard thing is this...

I worked for Textron Financial, a fortune 500 company. I was a helpdesk geek and graphic designer. I gave them ideas for their site and also there brochures.

Now when designing a public piece you always have to keep in mind to be politically correct. Now I don't think a billboard with a naked women holding money would go over that well for a financial company! That is why I designed my ads for AO to be p.c.

I don't agree with the naked women issue persay, however I don't think that this issue will topple governments, start a nuclear war, or change the Vatican.

I think that we might have read too much into this contest and have taken everything way out of proportion.

I'm sure Tom, in his right mind will do whatever is best.

I'm sure of it.

[hitmanng]

Originally posted by shartley

Now that made me laugh!
Hitmanng

[hitmanng]

First let me state, I am not ready to give up on AGD today. He built his company on something I believe in. But I think a point needed to be made.

Now directed to Fatman

Originally posted by FatMan
Aw guys, get off the high horse! Since when has quality sold products? You can look almost anywhere and find that by far the most popular products are NOT the highest quality. Is the most popular car the highest quality? How about the most popular operating system? The most popular stereo, or TV? How about the most popular plumbing fixtures?

First of all I like my horse the calvery almost always wins. I also see quality products winning in the end all the time. I own Matag appliances. Why, the best for the money, not the adds. A Weber grill... ever see a Weber add, no, but it is consumer reports winning grill year after year. Humm Honda sells a lot of cars must be because they are sexy. Even have Kohler and delta faucets. Weird must just be me.

Originally posted by FatMan
Face it, quality engineering alone doesn't sell products. There are a few customers who LOOK for quality and are willing to PAY for it, and when it comes to paintball, AO pretty much represents that group. But we are a very small minority in paintball. Very, very small.

Humm AO is growing every day, and people have been buying more expensive paint for years. Must be worth something.
In fact the AGD market is already growing by leaps and bounds with the advent of the E-mag and warp feed, and with the SFL and the C&C will grow even faster.

Originally posted by FatMan
What matters is can AGD get some much needed marketing bang without sacrificing the engineering. Look at it another way - where is the income needed to do the next bit of engineering going to come from? All these technical advances aren't free. The Kingman's of the world are paying most of their wages to stamp out units for sale. Their "engineering" is weak by almost anyone's standards - so the fraction of their income they spend on improving their products is small.

If Tom does't have enough money for inovation he is paying himself and Simon way to much. This isn't a large company and they do the inovention themselves and do a damn good job of it too I might say. I am not saying it is free, they have a bought and rented a lot of expensive equipment to figure things out. I am saying that the R&D department isn't huge just very good at their job.

Originally posted by FatMan
We, the loyal AGD fans NEED AGD to do better in the market place, so they can continue to justify the extra effort they put into their quality. Tom is doing the right thing - at least up to a point. There IS a line that should not be crossed, but then who decides where than line is? We each decide for ourselves! Me? Putting a couple bimbos on a billboard to get some attention is no biggie AT ALL.

I think AGD can do much better in the marketplace without shockjock marketing. I am looking to see AGD do better but I see finding an E-mag in a paintball store more important than shocking the public at large.
You are right a few bimbos (your parents must be so proud) on a billboard might be no big deal. It also might get paintball tourneys banned from areas, and cause AGD and Perfect circle to lose law enforcement and government contracts. The person putting up the billboard draws the line of what will be on it. I simply have to react to what I see.... or in this case be proactive in stating my opinion of it.

Respectfully
Hitmanng

[Thordic]

AGD Market growing by leaps and bounds?

Sorry, but I don't see that. Maybe if you had some financial information to back you up, but I still don't see all that many Emags out there. The only reason lots of Emags are at my field is because everyone I play with is an AO member.

I agree with FatMan. You can't project your morality onto the rest of the world. If you don't want to buy AGD because Tom is trying to make money, well, I don't think he'll miss you too much, especially if the ad campaign works.

I mean, no offense, but Tom is a businessman. He is running a business. He isn't your friend. He isn't your buddy. He is someone trying to get your money. And you know what? He makes an effort to go out and make his customers happy while he is doing it. That alone should be enough for you.

How greedy can you get? Do you want to control Tom's entire businessplan for him? He has to make money, thats his livelihood. Making money means selling the most product. If 100 people get pissed off and never buy AGD again, but he brings in 500 new customers, well, that's just too bad for you, because its a business decision.

Tom has risked his wallet time and time again to try to make his product the best and to make people happy. He put HIS money on the line. He gives away product all the time.

What the hell more do you want from him? Do you expect him to come over your back and rub your belly when you have a tummyache?

Times like this I think Tom's niceness backfires. Too many people expect him to suck it up and ride the high horse, when if he gets off and walks he can make much more $$$. In business, you always take the money.

Quality doesn't sell product. Quality will usuaully get you a small but loyal customer base. Look at stuff like ANSOIL for cars, or Klipsh speakers. Most of the general public has no idea what they are.

If quality sold, Kingman would be out of money.

Advertising sells. Believing otherwise is just refusing to acknowledge reality.

[FatMan]

Hatmanng - thanks for your reply.

I tend to own the same high-quality stuff myself - and I don't particularly care for "bimbo" marketing in general. In fact, I think the WORST paintball adds are those with the girl in satin short-shorts with big plastic boobs holding a marker. On the other hand, I kindof like some of the Angel adds - and I've liked plenty of suggestive ads that were based on an interesting idea - and I thought the idea behind the ad in question was a pretty good one - not because of the boobs, but because of the idea.

Still, those of us who think this way are maybe 1% of the public. And if AO doubled its membership, it would still be only about 1% of the paintball public. AGD has nowhere near the budget of the bigger players in the market - and in a small company those few personnel's salaries are a critical aspect of the company's costs.

Ads such as the one suggested already run all over the place in paintball - they haven't had a big impact on its acceptance - nor would they likely interfere with AGD's existing contracts. (I am in no way advocating a bunch of nekkid girls with their legs spread - the photo in question is no worse than a girl in a bikini and I see those and worse on billboards all the time).

I AGREE that quality and engineering is the MOST important aspect - but YOU AND I are NOT the paintball buying public at large - that is what I'm saying, and what Tom has been saying. The average 18 year old at the field with the Angel who thinks "Mags Suck" is not thinking about quality, he is thinking with his "male member" (so to speak). If you can get his attention with an add, and then hook him in with the quality of the merch, you have done a good job.

I'm not sure what my parents have to with it - my Mom thinks I'm crazy to play paintball at all and I'm too old to wear an earring. I stopped asking them their opinion over 20 years ago (though they DO keep on giving it )

Anyway, I thought this was an intelligent discussion, not a personal tit-for-tat one, so I'll let it go at that.

FatMan

[Riotz]

Sorry I didn't bother reading the latest threads.

For all of those who are complaining about the ad. You say you don't like it, but you agree it's the most EFFECTIVE solution so far. But yet, you don't want to use it. I don't see any of you coming up with a better more effective billboard.

In times like this, you have to use the best. Wheter it offends people or not. Like Tom said, any press is good press.

[hitmanng]

Originally posted by Thordic
AGD Market growing by leaps and bounds?

Sorry, but I don't see that. Maybe if you had some financial information to back you up, but I still don't see all that many Emags out there. The only reason lots of Emags are at my field is because everyone I play with is an AO member.

Actually Tom stated himself that a year ago he couldn't give Warp feeds away and recently when he tried people where jumping over tables to get them. AGD is slowly getting a reputation for quality on every field they are used on trust me on my field the Automags suck stickers are gone and the respect is back.

Originally posted by Thordic
I agree with FatMan. You can't project your morality onto the rest of the world. If you don't want to buy AGD because Tom is trying to make money, well, I don't think he'll miss you too much, especially if the ad campaign works.

I am not trying to project my morality on the world. Feel free to do anything you want that doesn't effect me. I see a billboard like this potentially effecting me and AGD both things I care a little about or I wouldn't be here. I agree Tom would miss my AGD purchases very much but I am not representing me here I am representing part of a very large market, That market I fear he might miss a little more than me.

Originally posted by Thordic
I mean, no offense, but Tom is a businessman. He is running a business. He isn't your friend. He isn't your buddy. He is someone trying to get your money. And you know what? He makes an effort to go out and make his customers happy while he is doing it. That alone should be enough for you.

No offense taken this is all done in the best intrest of paintball and AGD for me. Nothing will be taken personally by me I promise. Tom is not my friend. I have never met him and may never meet him. I feel I do know him and some of his beliefs and I believe he at least knows I am here and knows some of what I stand for. Again Tom's opinion of me or mine of him really is not at stake here it is public opinion of AGD and paintball as a whole. Tom does care about that I can promise that is why he is here every day getting to know each and everyone of us. I also care about this as I like both AGD and paintball and would like to see both of them grow and prosper. Oh and Tom, want to be friends??

Originally posted by Thordic
How greedy can you get? Do you want to control Tom's entire businessplan for him? He has to make money, thats his livelihood.

I am not greedy as I do not believe I am recieving any personal gain for what I say. I could ask Tom "How greedy can you get?" as that is what this is all about. How for do you go to make a buck. I would love to control Tom's entire bussiness plan for him as every bussiness I have ever run has had a minimun increase in sales of 20% per year or more while I controled the bussiness plan. Unfortunately as a Pharmacist I doubt Tom would consider me qualified, and I just checked the employment area and no possition is available.

Originally posted by Thordic
Making money means selling the most product. If 100 people get pissed off and never buy AGD again, but he brings in 500 new customers, well, that's just too bad for you, because its a business decision.

I can tell you that every person you piss off tells at least 5 friends, that is marketing fact. If you get 250 new customers and don't piss anyone off you will in the end succeed in a much greater way. I know that and so does anyone else that lives every day in a market driven world.

Originally posted by Thordic
Tom has risked his wallet time and time again to try to make his product the best and to make people happy. He put HIS money on the line. He gives away product all the time.

What the hell more do you want from him? Do you expect him to come over your back and rub your belly when you have a tummyache?

I want to Tom to represent AGD and paintball in a respectfull manner that will help it grow and prosper. As mentioned above I have not ever met Tom so if he did stop by to rub my belly it would frankly freak me out. I am not sure how the rest relates to this discussion since Tom will continue to risk his wallet every day he is a bussiness owner.

Originally posted by Thordic
Times like this I think Tom's niceness backfires. Too many people expect him to suck it up and ride the high horse, when if he gets off and walks he can make much more $$$. In business, you always take the money.

I have never heard of anyone regretting be nice. And always taking the short term cash over the long term plan is not how you make money. I have lost a lot of money by being carefull and making friends not enemies. I have even quit jobs and taken others making less money because of my beliefs and my willingness to stand by them. In the end more money was made and everyone was better off. I have no idea what Tom's beliefs are. But I do know he cares about public image. That is exactly what he said.

Originally posted by Thordic
Quality doesn't sell product. Quality will usuaully get you a small but loyal customer base. Look at stuff like ANSOIL for cars, or Klipsh speakers. Most of the general public has no idea what they are.

You are right but people do know the AGD name. And everyone admits it's quality. People complain about short stroking and ball breaks and Tom has fixed those issues and needs to get the message out. I refer you to my comments above I and many others buy quality for spin, marketing or buzz.

Originally posted by Thordic
If quality sold, Kingman would be out of money.

Actually they wouldn't. They sell to a different market. The lower cost paintball marker. Trust me if Spiders cost what Automags do you wouldn't see many of them. In fact notice the Tippman market growing and the spider market shrinking. Quality sells.

Respectfully,
Hitmanng

[Paul La Rue]

OK, I'm going to step in here for a moment.
First off hitmanng that is the only design to make me laugh. ;-)

Just recently I had a long discussion on my Pballcanada forum about the latest batch of photos from WDP (the ones of the topless girl holding a couple iR3's). I was considering purchasing an Angel, but I do not agree with WDP's current marketing strategy and because of thier reliance on exploiting women to sell their markers I will not buy from them.

Does WDP make good markers? of course they do.
Do I agree with their marketing, absolutely not.
So while WDP continues their current marketing, I will not purchase from them.

I respect both Tom and AGD very much, and I have supported them for over a decade. Personally, I think it would be very poor form to use such a billboard as a major public advertisement. Will one billboard turn me off of AGD? NO.
BUT, if AGD was to follow a marketing plan that paralleled WDP, then it's a possibility.

Being a new father with a little girl who I plan on training to be an excellent Paintball player, I am definitely looking at the long term consequences of this type of advertising...

AGD, if you feel you need to bolster your advertising, then please bring in a professional, create an actual marketing plan and implement it in a professional manner. While Advertising is a very powerful thing, it isn't the end all of business.

One last note, bad advertising is much worse than no advertising at all...the whole "there is no bad press" is very wrong, especially when your talking about a company with the reputation AGD has...

[shartley]

Paul La Rue
Ditto... great post.
(You too Hitmanng.)

Very well said.

[hitmanng]

Originally posted by FatMan
Hitmanng - thanks for your reply.

Thank you, I love a good debate.

Originally posted by FatMan
I tend to own the same high-quality stuff myself - and I don't particularly care for "bimbo" marketing in general. In fact, I think the WORST paintball adds are those with the girl in satin short-shorts with big plastic boobs holding a marker.

I think most people agree, but they think "use what sells and other people really like that stuff."

Originally posted by FatMan
Ads such as the one suggested already run all over the place in paintball - they haven't had a big impact on its acceptance - nor would they likely interfere with AGD's existing contracts. (I am in no way advocating a bunch of nekkid girls with their legs spread - the photo in question is no worse than a girl in a bikini and I see those and worse on billboards all the time).

Actually they don't, I see pretty girls in bathing suits and cheer leader costumes all the time, but the only thing I have ever seen similar the the message of it that hopper wasn't there I could see her boob is a Shocker add with a naked guy on it and I found it very offensive also. I see worse on billboards for strip joints all the time but that is really a different market I hope.

Originally posted by FatMan
I AGREE that quality and engineering is the MOST important aspect - but YOU AND I are NOT the paintball buying public at large - that is what I'm saying, and what Tom has been saying. The average 18 year old at the field with the Angel who thinks "Mags Suck" is not thinking about quality, he is thinking with his "male member" (so to speak). If you can get his attention with an add, and then hook him in with the quality of the merch, you have done a good job.

I agree I simply think it can be done with more class.

Originally posted by FatMan
I'm not sure what my parents have to with it - my Mom thinks I'm crazy to play paintball at all and I'm too old to wear an earring. I stopped asking them their opinion over 20 years ago (though they DO keep on giving it )

Anyway, I thought this was an intelligent discussion, not a personal tit-for-tat one, so I'll let it go at that.

You used the term Bimbo not me. I originally put her parents must be so proud, but then realized, she probably does not consider herself a bimbo. She is a very beautiful young lady and probably works very hard to remain that way. I simply was trying to quickly convey the fact that she deserves more respect than to be considered a Bimbo. If you were speaking for the market at large, then so was I, this is not personal. My fear is that this is what billboards like this make people think. For all we know she is a doctor that models on her off days.

It is about class, respect and the message we send to future generations.

Thanks for the intelligent debate,
Respectfully,
Hitmanng

[johnny_boy]

Paul! Ya'ar, a fellow Canadian, and you said what I was wanting to see!

/me huggles Paul



I must pay attention to Pballcanada.com more often, I missed that thread.


John
Halifax, Nova Scotia

[hitmanng]

Originally posted by Riotz
Sorry I didn't bother reading the latest threads.

For all of those who are complaining about the ad. You say you don't like it, but you agree it's the most EFFECTIVE solution so far. But yet, you don't want to use it. I don't see any of you coming up with a better more effective billboard.

In times like this, you have to use the best. Wheter it offends people or not. Like Tom said, any press is good press.

Actually if you read I do not agree that it is the most effective. I submitted a billboard to the contest and it even has a extremely scantily clad lady on it at AGD's request. In fact, it shows the most skin of all billboards except this one. It's message is very different though and she could be removed without in any way effecting the message. I am in no way advocating my billboard, I am just saying there are over 40 other alternatives to choose from already submitted.

I am not sure what times we are in, or why this is considered the best, as it is not in my opinion. And let me tell you any press is not good press, ask anyone at Enron.

Respectfully
Hitmanng

[hitmanng]

Mr. La Rue

Thank you for another voice of reason.
Also congratulations on your new daughter.

P.S. I must admit a few billboards struck me as funny, I thought you have to be kidding me, but that was when I thought it was a joke, like the "Haven't you seen our boxes" billboard. Then I found out they weren't kidding.

Hitmanng

[FatMan]

Hmm, thoughful reply Hitmanng.

Don't know if you read my earlier posts, but I'm really more interested in the idea of "the hopper shouldn't be here" than the issue of a nude woman. I don't really think AGD would use a nude woman - but then again, I don't have a fundamental problem with nude women or nudity in general.

As for the exploitation of women, I'm not for that, but I'm not sure that simply showing a nude woman is exploitation. Oh I know there are a lot of folks who DO - but like you said, that woman quite likely works hard for her money and possibly even enjoys her work.

As for the term "bimbo" I agree it was not the best choice of term - what I intended to convey was the idea that the woman was there strictly as a pleasing visual and has nothing to do with paintball. Thus, in terms paintball she is a "bimbo" though in terms of the medical profession she might not be! Of course, I could be wrong, she might BE a serious paintball player who loves EMags and likes to get naked to express that - so I could be wrong!

None of you noticed MY billboard entry - which also had a beautiful woman who was fully clothed and is an actual paintball player - holding a marker after painting up a bunch of guys with it.

I think some of the reactions getting to be more extreme than they need to be. AGD isn't likely to go full-out nude women advertising - but getting some attention is a good thing in general.

FatMan

[AGD]

Remember what I said in the first post, if I had WDP's rep I wouldn't have done the Mancow stunt. NO I don't want to have the same rep as WDP, I think it's one sided and does nothing to represent their engineering skills.

Shock value is a dangerous road to follow because it wears out so quickly. To use a father analogy, if you yell at your kid every day, after a while it becomes normal and your child still doesn't listen. Your only choice is to yell LOUDER and MORE often which is a loosing battle. If you rarely yell and blow up when your kid comes home with a bad report card THAT gets his attention!

Right now, in this situation, with the current state of affairs, I need to hit the donkey in the head with a 2x4(most of you probably don't remember that joke).

AGD