Cocker Accuracy

[mykroft]

Easiest way is to compare an Excalibur & a Viking. Same basic design, one's open-bolt, ones closed. Guess what, unless you mucked up the design, it's going to be about identical.

[TRIAD]

First off, I didn't say it would shoot further, so read what I say, I said more accurately. Now, the closed bolt is a better design than open bolt. Why do you think a lot of pros shoot cockers? Because it looks cool (which it does)? NO, because there is a performance issue, with cockers being lp, closed bolt, quiet, NO ball breakage when properly set up, etc. Now, the closed bolt agitates the ball less, has a lower recocking, therefore, when the bolt is coming back to make contact with the ball, it is hitting the ball with MAYBE 75 psi, MAYBE. This is the only time the bolt is "hitting" the ball, when the gun is firing, the bolt is moving away. Now, in blowback, the force of the bolt hitting the ball is what is needed to fire, i don't care if it has lvl 10 or not, the bolt is still hitting the ball harder, the ball is being nudged against the side of the breach with one or more detents, and so there is room for more breakage and less accuracy. And once again, sure I'm no expert at the firing methods, but when a lot of pros use cockers, that says one thing, They have performance where it's needed. If closed bolt is no different from open bolt blowback, the pros would shoot the latter, but instead they consistently prefer the former.

[InfinatyBPS]

Well, after you release the trigger on a cocker what happens? Exactly the bolt comes back and smacks the ball into the barrel... Just like a open bolt

[SSMercury]

Gah, drawn into the war, I'm taking a side. Thanks TRIAD for doing that.


TRIAD, sorry but you sound rather foolish just from what I'm reading. Sorry man, just the way things are to me.

Quote from you: Also, IMO, 'cockers (which of course are closed bolt), have the neatest way of firing which can make any person say "wow"."

Relevance? It takes a lot to "'wow'" me.

Quote: NO, because there is a performance issue, with cockers being lp, closed bolt, quiet, NO ball breakage when properly set up, etc.

lp= disproven to mean a thing in regards to matters with that chambered paintball. Airsmith proven

closed bolt=the point of the arguement

quiet= does it matter? People screaming, yelling codes, running around. This ain't woods play usually, what you want quiet for?

Ball breakage=too many factors to even think about. I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years they figure out that our very MINDS had an effect on those little balls. Barrel/paint match, paint quality/age, and god knows what else.

Quote: Now, in blowback, the force of the bolt hitting the ball is what is needed to fire

Are you saying I need the bolt to touch a paintball to fire? Wrong.

Quote: And once again, sure I'm no expert at the firing methods, but when a lot of pros use cockers, that says one thing

Several actually

1. You try imitating the pros, nothing wrong with this. Copying is learning.
2. Pros like autocockers. Ask them why they chose them, see if you get a straight answer. I'm sure you can e-mail famed ones somewhere on the internet. My guess is that it's peer/sponsor pressure. Where it isn't that, I'd say it's what they've been used to for X years and don't want to switch due to feel. Where it isn't those, I'd say because of visual customization. After those, I'd say technical customization. After all that, I'd say they'd say because of closed/open bolt

Quote: If closed bolt is no different from open bolt blowback, the pros would shoot the latter, but instead they consistently prefer the former.

Consistently? Wrong

Go to WARPIG. Read their article upon making a fair closed bolt/open bolt comparison



Rest of you lot, would you PLEASE say WHICH side you're arguing for in your replies? Some of you seem to be arguing the exact same words. I can't tell what side you're arguing for. Notably nutz. You in favor of open or closed bolt?

Evilbob and Darkripper are both right. Darkripper says shoot what you 're comfortable with, screw everyone else's opinion. Not to mention Evilbob's point that the guns of today cycle so fast that it doesn't matter.

[FutureMagOwner]

im in favor of both being the same:

the concept of cocker being more accurate camefrom the lack of a detent on cockers. we(i have a cocker) dont ahve a detent so we have to get a better fit so balls dont slide out the barrel. that resulted in more accuracy which was attributed to the closed bolt. because the pre-paintbarrel match era beleived this(which they had every right to because they didnt know anybetter) but we dont because it comes down to only 2 things in accuracy: paint and barrel match; and marker consistancy(there are other outside factors you cant control but these 2 are the ones you can control sorta) i think the paint and barrel match has been discussed enough and beyond but noone mentions consistancy. consistancy of your velocity affects accuracy on a vertical scale(or for you geometry lovers the y axis) if your gun shoots consistantly 300 fps and you have a good paint and barrel match, in theroy you have balls hitting balls(not including outside factors such as wind and your accuracy or a clamps steadyness). now if you have a gun shooting horible with +/-40fps you can aim at something have it one shot hitthe ground 10-20 ft in front of him and then have it go flying off over his head or whacking him in the face(or somewhere else) at over 300 fps and anywhere in between.


remeber consistancy, paint and barrel, your self, and everything else effects where that ball is gunna go

[hostage]

dang we need a physisist

[z-zero]

I've owned both a cocker and a mag. I've found my mag to be more consistant with CA then my cocker was. My cocker ran better on c02 then my mag would. Stock minimag and my stock 2k cocker shot the same distance when set to the same velocity using the same paint. I can shoot faster with my mag, I did'nt chop with either one of them when I was ripping. My mag is easier to take care of, not that my cocker broke at all. One is open bolt and the other is closed, big deal there are so many other differences that the whole bolt thing is trivial. Its all preference and I'm tired of all the crap that people talk up about mags vs cockers or emags vs angels, go buy a gun you like and play, there is really only one major controlling factor to winning
a game and that consists of the guys behind the markers, I've seen guys with pumps take out multiple semi shooters in one game, was it the gun? no it was that the guy with the pump played smart and the guy with the semi under-estimated his opponent. Paintball is played by players not by equipment, so why put such a high priority on tools or how they work? The only reason there is any of this is because companies want to make money, not because companies want to create better players. If companies wanted to create better players there would be books and manuals and video training courses on how to be a better player, but because we the silly consumer worry more about which gun we own then how we play, they cater to the masses. Paintball is a sport played as a competition not as a product display. Display your skills not your gun!

z-zero

[cphilip]

Describing any round glob of goo traveling at 300 feet per second as "accurate" is the problem...

[z-zero]

LOL thats pretty funny!!

z-zero

[nutz]

SSMercury- I am not in favor of either side. Id consider myself neutral in this one. I shot what feels good to me and what i like to shoot. I dont follow hype, sure i try stuff and i find the good and the bad but i really pick what i shoot on how it feels and things i like about it. The way i can do this is because between me and my friends we have owned nearly every type of gun except a excal, viking and shocker. So i cant say much about those guns but i am very knowledgeable about others and thats where i pick my guns.

I have little knowledge on physics as do most people on the board so i choose not to argue. As someone said before, there are probably so many factors in how guns shoot that it is possible for one to shot more accurate than others and it shows how little we really know about how things happen and why. The reason that article had so many assumptions is because we know so little about many things. I am doubtfull that any one on these board can actually explain some of the reasons that cockers shoot more accurately or vice versa.

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah i dont know much physics beyong what goes up must come down but it seems like common sense with these things

[dre1919]

Personally, I'm pro-Mag.

Originally posted by nutz
SSMercury- I am not in favor of either side. Id consider myself neutral in this one. I shot what feels good to me and what i like to shoot. I dont follow hype, sure i try stuff and i find the good and the bad but i really pick what i shoot on how it feels and things i like about it. The way i can do this is because between me and my friends we have owned nearly every type of gun except a excal, viking and shocker. So i cant say much about those guns but i am very knowledgeable about others and thats where i pick my guns.

I have little knowledge on physics as do most people on the board so i choose not to argue. As someone said before, there are probably so many factors in how guns shoot that it is possible for one to shot more accurate than others and it shows how little we really know about how things happen and why. The reason that article had so many assumptions is because we know so little about many things. I am doubtfull that any one on these board can actually explain some of the reasons that cockers shoot more accurately or vice versa.

I agree, except I'll take the Mag side. My reason? Simplicity. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about most markers in a general sense and quite informed in the case of Mags. This was by my own choice. Years ago, when the Mag versus Cocker debate was in it's prime and you chose one of the two when buying a good "high level" marker I did a lot of research and chose Airgun. I did this because I didn't buy into the hype of which one shot farther or more accurate, I chose Mags becuase they have fewer parts than the Cocker and because you can run them over with a car and still have it work. IMHO, fewer parts equal less things to fix/replace. KISS method: Keep it simple stupid. I think that both the Cocker and Mag are excellent guns, and the differences in performance are minute in reality and grandiose in people's heads. Honestly, if the Cocker way of internal operation was the best shooting, most accurate way on the planet wouldn't the other manufacturers have just copied it to a "T" by now?

I think it's naive to think that just becuase the pros use something it must be the best. (not trying to flame or insult, just stating) A lot of the time, these guys use what their sponsored by or paid to use. You think a pro player wearing a DYE jersey bought that jersey because it's micro weaved fibers cool him in a way the other jersey manufacturers don't know about? Look he's got nine friends who all think alike! No, he's wearing it because he got it for free. AGD doesn't sponsor near the amount of teams WDP and WGP do, so you don't see the Mags there. Plus, when you throw in a good ol' fashioned amount of rumors by people who aren't qualified enough to know, then you get results like that.

I agree with cphil, when were talking about propelling a semi-stable balloon of liquid you aren't going to see a huge amount of difference from one marker to another. I feel what really effects the way markers shoot is the other non-operation issues such as paint/barrel match and velocity consistancy (as was stated above). It's too bad a lot of people do buy markers because of what they hear instead of what they investigate themselves.

[nutz]

yea do u think paint markers were designed around the theories of shooting the paintballs best or getting the ball out the barrel at 300 fps.

[paintbattler]

ppl just ssay that becuz they think it is funny..i guess..i think my mag is 10 times better than a cocker

[Nitroduck]

Originally posted by mykroft
Simply put, it's very consistent out of the box, and teh configuration of the marker tricks your eye to think it's shooting flatter.

For the $$ a stock cocker is just about the most consistent marker you can buy, +/- 5fps isn't uncommon out of the box with a preset, +/- 10 with CO2.

Consistency & paint/barrel match=accuracy, as long as the player has decent aim.

a 5th gen bm2k out of the box with preset n2 gets +/- 3fps.



Higher end guns are usually more consistant.

Having said this , here's my lil thing about open and closed bolt guns.

I've owned 3 bushmasters ,1 angel, 1 mag and a few other open bolts. I've also owned about 6 autocockers, and 2 shockers. I've found there to be very little accuracy differance if any between my open bolt and closed bolt guns.